----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 07 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-03-25 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Russ: Solid door closing. Avalon: Well done. R: Thank you. By now, I have had a few episodes worth of practice. A: Yes. R: Once again, I have arrived. I have been on a magical journey. A: A magical journey. R: I have. I traveled across my living room, around a corner, up a flight of stairs, down a hallway, across a room, through a magical door, and into this very closet. Where I would take part in another episode of A: Two Clowns in a Closet. R: *hand kiss* A: Lovely, R: Beautiful start to a beautiful night. I'm so glad to be here with you and with all of my internet friends. A: Hello. R: Hello. And we have some questions. A: We have more questions, yes. R: Written in pen on index cards, as promised A: Yup. R: And talked about. So I don't think we need to spend extra time on that. A: No, I think we are good to go. We have questions. And clearly people have put some thought into this. R: Oh, these are thoughtful questions. A: Clearly, people thought about them. R: Wow, now I'm worried. Well, I'm running out of ways to stall. I know something I can stall about. A: Why- I don't understand why you're trying to stall, but I am curious as to what you're thinking about. R: You see, I was going to let it go and say you were right, but then you got curious, and now I feel compelled to satisfy your curiosity. My knees hurt. A: Oh, well, I didn't need to know that. R: Yeah, you did. A: Of course your knees hurt R: We've been doing extra training in the last couple of months. I'm feeling strong, feeling a little bit fit, thought, "Oh, this will make me able to run up those stairs and do all that other-" And no, the knees hurt. Today the knees hurt. A: Recovery days are like that. R: We always record on recovery days. And so one of the things I think people don't realize is we're never this calm, but we're wrecked because we're sitting here under blankets going "so sore, so tired." A: It's true. R: It's pretty much true. So, yeah. I wanted to say that we've been working very hard. A: We have been working very hard, and you have been making tremendous progress. R: I don't need praise. I just needed to- A: You have, though. You've been doing handstands, and I've been really proud of you. R: Thank you. I have. And you have been coaching me, and I'm feeling very impressed by how good a coach you've been. A: Oh well, thank you. R: I set up this entire point here so I could give you a little praise and you tried to turn it back to me and I deflected it right back out to you. And now you have praised all over you. Deal with it. A: So long as you also deal with the fact that I praised you- R: there was fallout when the praise hit you, it spattered off. And like a bystander, I took a small over spray of praise. A: Yes, you did. R: I will accept that. A: Are we ready for the first question? R: I think now that we've sprayed praise all over the room, we might as well get on and things are feeling very comfortable very well. Microphone, I just like to take a moment and say all of you are looking fantastic doing whatever it is you're doing. A: It's true. R: That's true. You are looking so microphoneish and attentive. A: Yes, R: Yes. And the way your little red LED that says you're on is lit, it makes me feel- concerned because this doesn't actually have a red LED. I just spit that out and I'm hoping it's actually on. A: I was about to say if the red LED is blinking, that would mean that this was actually muted, which would be concerning. R: But let's pretend it's muted so we are more comfortable and then we'll just roll with it. A: I'm not going to be more comfortable if it's muted. R: You really like performing. A: I like talking to people. There's no reason to do this if nobody's there. R: Well, I like to think that people are listening, and I know people are listening because people tell us. We get little messages about how people say things like it helps them sleep and they put it on when life gets stressful and it makes them pass out because we just drone on a bit. Speaking of which, as we've droned on- A: Well, I apologize to that person. R: No, that's a compliment. A: No, no, no, it was a compliment. I'm going to apologize to that person for this first question. R: Oh, it's one of those A: Because I would not like to include this question in my heading to bed recordings, but it is a question we received. R: Content warning. A: Content warning: Bodies are gross. R: You're holding the cards about to ask me a bodies are gross question. Okay. Well, I just made this lovely people love hearing us- and I apologize for everything I'm undoubtedly about to say. A: All right, R: Okay A: Here we go. Are you prepared? R: How could I not be at this point? A: "Tell us about the time Russ got peed on during practice/performance. It wasn't clear which. How did it happen? How did everyone deal with it?" R: Come on. Okay. There are two things that come out of this. First and foremost, A: Apparently, pee. R: And number two, I'll leave out. And number three, I'd like to point out that all those times where I say something offhand and think that someone might not be listening to me while we're working out in "circus in place", they're listening for opportunities like this to throw us under a bus. A: Clearly. R: Because now I have to talk about being A: being R: piddled upon. A: Yes. R: Okay. You know, at the time I didn't finish the story. It was an offhanded comment because it's not an interesting story. But I will tell it. I will preface this by saying that your content warning nails it, bodies are gross. Here's the thing. Human bodies, and you have to use one to be in a physical body to do physical theater. It's kind of one of the very few things you need to bring with you to the theater when you're going to perform. A: It's true. R: They like it if you bring pants. A: Also true, but I've heard of exceptions. R: I've heard of plenty of exceptions, and some of them were exceptional. But that being said, bodies are gross and things happen. And additionally, unless that is the focus of your work, which, wow, that's a choice. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's not my choice, but it's a choice. If that's not the focus of your work, then you need to focus on what's important. And in our acrobatic partnership, I am the base, which is I am the big person that gets between you and the floor. That's kind of the job description. A: Yup R: You choose to defy gravity, and I choose to make sure you're right when gravity disagrees, A: Yup R: That is kind of the job description. So every time I step on the mats or step on the stage doing these sorts of things, the whole thing is like a promise. I'm going to say, "I promise to get between you and the floor. If you fall, I promise I will catch you no matter what". And that sentence right there, that last little bit, "no matter what" is where this little silly story comes from. Right now, we're not performing. We're practicing here. A: Yes. R: And so things are very focused on what we're doing. Just you and I are doing our thing. And normally when I'm teaching at the residency or when we're out at like an acro jam, which we've been to or doing workshop stuff, if someone says, "Hey, I like to try that", you're like, "Yeah, let's do it". Because there's a chance not only for you to help someone learn, but there's always a chance for you to learn. And you're kind of in this opportunity and so you go for it. And someone saw us doing a trick that we had been taught that was originally called the "fart flipper". And we thought at the time, early on, we thought that was gross. We said, "We're not going to call it that. We're going to call it the flipper". Little did we know that essentially any trick that involves somebody bending over, being squeezed around the waist bodily and lifted into the air and thrown in the air onto someone's back, the fart flipper is actually a pretty good name because there's a bit of both. A: Yeah, it's an extremely accurate name. R: A bit of both. We were doing flipper, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And it's a trick we do a lot and we like it because it's really dumb the way we do it. A: It is really dumb. You do keep asking me not to fart on your neck, and I R: *laughs* A: -keep trying not to fart on your neck. R: It's true. A: Which is essentially where you land as the flyer. Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing I can do about that. It's just a thing that's going to happen sometimes because you're compressing- R: I squeeze the middle and lift. I literally bring it upon myself. A: Yes you do. R: I pick you up, I reverse you, and I put your butt on my own neck. A: And I think the request "Hey, could I please not have my neck farted on" is a completely valid request. R: Thank you for considering my desires, boundaries, and needs. That's important to me. A: Unfortunately, it is one that is so long as we continue to do this trick, I can't fulfill R: You will be violating my boundaries, my comfort zones, and not fulfilling my one desire of not being pooted on periodically. A: The good thing is you are at least aware of this and have taken that into consideration when you consent to lift me up onto your back in this method. R: So we've exonerated your farting, your constant flatulence. We've exonerated you for the moment. But returning to the story, which was some time ago, A: Yes. R: Before we had such a comfort zone with these things, somebody came up to us and said at the residency and said, "Can I try that?" And what it basically happens anytime there's an acrobatics trick, there's a three step uncomfortable process. First one is you're looking at, is this person capable of even trying this, or is this hubris? And that's a very quick one. It's pretty much a yes or no. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: The second one is the willingness, you know, the comfort and willingness and readiness to try. You know, that's pretty obvious that one's. Perhaps the third one is that it's uncomfortable because there's a bit of body reality to it is one of you is bigger, and it's probably going to be better at picking the other one up. And that person at the early stages- because it does change over time A: Yup. R: Is the base. A: Yup. R: And so you basically walk up to someone who's bigger than you and say, "Hey, will you flip me up so I can fart on your neck?" No, that's not what you say. A: *laughs* R: But that is effectively what you're asking for. And so to give consent to that, to someone who is either you're not very close with working or maybe isn't as well trained in dealing with these things, you take a deep breath and you go, "Yeah, okay". And so I said, "yeah", I was trying to be supportive, and I wanted to try this because someone being an inch or two taller completely changes the way that feels. And I'm like, "Oh, this would be good learning experience. We're on gym mats. Everyone's pretty fit. This'll be a good opportunity". A: And this one's a good one because the exit strategies, if something goes wrong- if the flyer doesn't know what they're doing on this one- R: The most explosive gone wrong I've ever seen done you and I did where I flipped you hard enough that you ended up on the ground standing on your feet behind me. And it looked amazing. A: And it's safe. R: Yeah. The point is I put you back down if it goes wrong A: The thing is, like everything about it is pretty safe if the base knows what they're doing, which you do. R: Thank you. The reason I know why what I'm doing with this trick, for the record, is one time at an event, we did this trick, and you didn't even notice it went a tiny bit wrong, and it scared me. And because of that, I got obsessive about it. And I got obsessive about basing it correctly. And I wanted it in every one of our workouts until it was clean because I wanted to be able to keep my promise. So this was something that I'm also now I feel like, "Yeah, if I can lift you, I will do this to you. Because I've done this hundreds of times, thousands of times by now. Sure". Person says to me, "Let's do it". I say, "Yes, let's do it". I grabbed them, I picked them up in the air, and I hear, "Uh-oh". Now here's the thing, If I hear "AAAAH" fine. If I hear "swear word", fine. A: If you hear "down", everyone comes to the ground. R: Everyone comes to the ground. Or "NO", you hear that. But a little quiet "uh-oh". You really don't know what to do with that. So you sort of just finish the trick, and you have a person sitting on your neck, and then you feel, I'm going to say warmth. And I'm going to stop describing, A: All right. R: Okay. So I'm sitting there, and I'm feeling warmth. And here's the mortifying reality of the trick. I'd like to discuss the exit of this trick. The traditional, safe, best exit for this trick is for me to lean forward slightly and for that person to slide down my back gracefully, like a playground slide, or in this case, a bit like a water slide. The person was not prepared for the level of pressure I put on their midsection, and they peed a little. So the question is, "How did I respond to it?" A: "How did everyone deal with it?" R: There was a handful of people there. Well, the person got to the ground, said, "Excuse me", and ran out of the room. I walked over and- let's be clear, if this was like a real biohazard- this is a very small amount of mistake. If this had been a real biohazard situation, I am pretty easily grossed out and I probably would have responded much differently. But as it was, there weren't that many people around. It wasn't- it was like something had gone wrong. But it wasn't something to make a big deal out of, mostly because the best I could do is make a person feel traumatized about it. And I had this sudden realization. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not happy about this. And I'm sure" A: The best you could do? I'm confused. R: I'm saying, if I took action on it, A: Oh, okay R: If I took action on it, A: The only positive thing R: The only positive thing I could do is shut a person down. And so what I kind of did was I kind of was like, "You want to go again?" When they came back, I'm like, "Go again?" And they said, "Yes". And we did it again. And this time, less water slide. A: Good. R: So that's a win. And I had toweled off and cleaned up in between. So it's not that great a story, except for the fact that it illustrates a couple of interesting things beyond the trick itself. For one thing, you have to be focused on many more important things. When I'm working, if something slips, falls, slides, goes wrong, an external environmental thing happens, you just have to be prepared to focus on the thing you're doing and assume that that's what's important because that's when things go wrong is when you panic. A: Yeah. R: You have to also realize that the person you're working with. I wasn't really in a coach capacity in that moment, but I was in a sharing the wisdom moment. I'm like things happen, and the less I made of it, the better. So I was trying very hard not to make a joke about it, a big deal about it. I do to this day, before any trick, look at whoever- I'm throwing you in the air all the time. It's become a running joke. I'm saying, "Do you need to pee?" A: Oh, yeah. And it's actually kind of funny. On gig site, this is less of a problem because when you're running around, the clown does not carry a water bottle. R: *laughs* A: So you're out there running for a couple of hours before you- R: You're dehydrated A: -take a break and you hydrate. So you run kind of dehydrated for the day, and then you re-hydrate the next day- R: Sure A: -significantly. But when we're training, we're like over hydrating because the goal is to not get dehydrated and make sure that our muscles are happy and good R: It also minimizes the chance of injury. A: Yeah. R: Staying hydrated is good. Drink water everyone. A: Drink water. Have something with electrolytes. R: Yeah, it's good A: -a little bit of salt. It's good. R: But yeah, at the end of the day, you're right. When we're working out in a gym setting, it's more likely to happen than it would in a performance setting. A: Oh, yeah. So particularly by the second half of our gyms, because I won't have been super hydrating before the gym, but when we started all the way through, I'm just drinking water the whole time. R: Same A: So there's a lot of tricks where you end up Loading the weight of the flyers body into either the base's feet or the base's hands. R: *Affirmative Noise* A: And so that creates a fairly small amount of space for that weight to be distributed on. And there are only so many regions on the body that you can do that. And one of the safest is going to be at the hips and on the midsection, where it's ab-y. You don't want to be- R: Ab-y? A: Where it's Ab-y, where you're dealing with your abdominal muscles and you're not dealing- R: The technical term you're going to go with is Ab-y? A: Yes. R: Okay. A: When you're dealing with the abdominals and the lower core, because you don't want to put that weight into somewhere where you've got your ribs, for example, R: That won't feel good. A: -And you kind of can't- asterisks on can't because anything is theoretically possible, do that as well on like the extremities, on the legs, on the arms, without a lot of additional work, R: We're squeezing the middle bits. A: We're squeezing the middle bits a lot. R: and anything in there is coming out. You're a human tube of toothpaste and you're going to suffer. A: So I am running the bathroom all the time from the second half of gym, because while that particular story didn't involve me, R: You never want it to. A: I don't want there to be a repeat. R: No A: That does. R: Thank you. A: And I'm fairly aware that it's very easy for that to be the case. R: Here's the thing. I would rather someone have that happen- I don't want it to happen to anyone. I'd rather them fart or whatever, then be uncomfortable at the end of the day. But also, bodies cramp up if you don't let them do their thing, take care of your body. Let your body do what it needs to do. I think that's important. And I'm actually pretty easily grossed out. I'm actually a person, I pretty easily get grossed out. But again, when the focus is somewhere else, just let the focus be there. So the answer to the question is, how did I handle it? Like that. What was the story? A dumb thing happened that was very educational for everyone involved and was not made too traumatic. And people are always listening. So I'm probably never going to talk about pee or farts at the gym again. I'm just going to do them quietly A: When we can. One of the things I've noticed is that a lot of acrobats people who do work on apparatus, you'll notice their performances use very loud music, R: Percussion, lots of percussion. Hmn Interesting. Well, I can't really ask you this question because it's a one story. A: No, R: Thankfully. Thankfully, it's only one story. A: So I chimed in where I could. R: You did great. A: But we have to move on to the next question. R: Any other thoughts on bodily embarrassment, or shall we move on? A: I think we've covered it. R: All right. Well, then I will move us to the next question. Oh, This is a good one. "Who are your clown heroes? Other clowns you look up to?" When you say my name, say it slowly so we can make sure everyone hears it. A: You know, I kind of struggle with this question because while- R: It begins with an R, just say it. A: Wow. R: *laughs* I'm kidding, I'm kidding. A: I think it's safe to say any clown that I've studied with. So, you are on that list. R: Well, thank you. It's about time you said it. A: But R: What's the problem? A: I don't love the term heroes. R: Sure. A: And part of what I don't love about the term heroes is that while there is a relative safety to taking clowns from film and from media that are from a long time ago and have either retired or have- not that I know many clowns that retire ever. R: They never retire. The best part about this job is that you can do it when you're old. A: But if they have or if they passed on, is that at that point, yeah. You can put them up on a pedestal and enjoy their work and dissect their work and steal from their work. But I think you run into a problem when you put people who are still doing the work up on a pedestal like that. I mean, yes. We've talked about the fact that there are several clowns that have impacted my awareness of what's funny and how to- things that I might want to do as a clown R: Sure. A: And things that impact how I see it. But it's really a small community, and most of everybody who you're going to take classes from, like, the same people who you're likely to take classes from eventually are likely to be your peers and you're likely to be, if you're not working alongside them. It's like they were at this theater last week. R: So is it about competition? A: I think there's an element of that. I don't like to think about that. R: Sure, A: Because I don't like thinking about it competitively, because at the end of the day, how everyone does this is different. And so while I may be the clown that one particular person wants to hire, somebody else may be the clown that somebody else wants to hire, and it doesn't matter. Like, there's nothing I can do about that, and there's nothing they can do about that. R: Even weirder still, with both the techniques, the tropes and some of the material, we may all do a certain gag A: And it will be different. R: We all do it our own way. But, yeah, if the show says I need someone to get up there and do something with a hat, well, I hat juggle one way, someone else juggles. Yeah. Another another, which I think is hilarious because I have had a clown in a show of mine who was performing in my show, who taught me a hat trick while we were backstage, which I later realized he had learned from watching another clown. A: Yeah. So since it's such a tight- I don't want to say it's a tight knit community because we all talk to each other, but we also don't all like, this is not like we're all best friends. R: No. A: But when you're backstage, sometimes you sort of are. Like just for the time that you're all backstage together. R: Well, you're in something A: Because you're in a thing together. R: Yeah, you're in something. A: So and I think that it's, that when you've taken- when you're aware that somebody exists and you watch their work and you think they're amazing and you put them on this high pedestal, if you're in a situation- When you find yourself in a situation where now you're both in the same place for whatever reason, because that will happen. It's a small world. Now you're tongue tied and nervous and, like, messed up about meeting this person. And they're- I don't want to say they're just a person because every human being is awesome and they are a person who has a lot of skill and who you look up to and who you might want to learn something from, but you're not going to learn anything from them when you get to meet them, if you can't function because you've turned them into this giant hero. R: I think one of the things that comes to mind is the idea that they are not heroes. They are people, which is so ironic because what we love about the clown is the fact that they're very human. A: Yes. R: And yet when we find out that they are very human, in some cases, it can destroy whatever we've built in our head. A: Because one, they're a different human. R: Well, yeah, absolutely. A: The day to day person is not going to be the same person you saw on a stage. R: If someone meets the clown that, you know, meets my clown and then meets me, there's a lot of differences. A: Yeah. R: And if you got to know me and then saw the clown, it'd be really hard to reconcile and keep those things separate for a person watching, I think. And so it becomes confusing. I will say that I wish I had achieved your wisdom on this point not to make heroes out of people sooner, because when I started, I researched and you're kind of at this stage now where you're learning about the great historical clowns and watching movies and watching videos. A: Oh Yeah. R: And you're watching and you're learning, but you've put yourself- because you had the accident of meeting a lot of working clowns A: Fairly early. Yeah. R: As a performer goes, it was pretty early for you because you were coming with us. And because of that, I think you're so lucky because you don't get mired down in that sort of reverence and worship that keeps you from seeing people as they are. A: Yeah. I think to be honest, I think I started to become- I started processing this idea pretty early because while there are clowns that are incredibly famous and there are, you don't necessarily expect to become incredibly famous or expect to run into somebody who is like really well known, bought as a completely household name. You don't expect to necessarily do that when you become a clown, but when you're thinking that you're going to do music, which is what I thought I was going to do when I was younger, when- as you try to convince yourself that you can succeed at that, which you have to find a way to do in order to succeed at that, I think that's one of the things that you try to process through, because now you're thinking about the possibility that you might meet somebody who is a household name if you get lucky enough to be able to go to the same recording studio R: Sure. A: Or you get lucky enough to get to do XYZ. I didn't, to be clear, I'm not claiming that I ever got to that point, but I think I started really thinking about how much I needed to enjoy people's work, learn from what people did, like what I liked, not like what I didn't like, but not put people on this pedestal that made me never able to talk to them, really early because I was thinking about dealing with that. R: I think it was a good lesson for you because, like I was saying, one of the tough bits is that, you know, I was watching these legends and then found out that some of them are always, say, Living Legend, and then finding out that they're people and they're human and maybe they're having a good day, maybe they're having a bad day, or maybe they're saying something off the cuff to you. It really becomes difficult to process that and not have your heroes demolished, not have your idealism go a little cynical, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: Because at the end of the day, I mean, we're talking in a very small world. The only way to get smaller would be, like, name three famous jugglers. That's the only thing smaller than clowns. A: *laughs* R: Jugglers don't get any respect for all the hard work they put in. A: They don't. R: And then so I have a lot of respect for that. So I think you've got the right ideas. Meet them as people if you can. And that's a tough thing to wrangle with, especially when, just like in the music world, you're in the same town, you're in the same world, you're in the same tent in some cases. Finding yourself in a show with another performer who's doing the sorts of things you do, who is a big name, it's a weird feeling. And not just because you're having imposter syndrome, but because "I've heard of that thing from the TV". It's a scary sentence. A: Yeah. R: Even though they're just that person. Anyway. A: But "Who are your clown heroes or other clowns you look up to?" I think we've talked about it a lot at this point. R: Well, let me think about this, because I did do a lot of research, and one of the things I was thinking about, I mentioned the idea of, like, I met a clown who taught me a trick and I later found out that trick came from somewhere else and somewhere else. One of the people that a lot of people went back to, and I always quote Chaplin and stuff, because it's this iconic thing that I'm very drawn to. But this other person a lot of clowns- I won't say steal from, but they absorbed A: Yes. R: George Carl. George Carl was an acrobat and physical comedian. And I say clown, but definitely not clown in the "honk, honk nose". I said that to make you mad because I know how you feel about honking noses. Your eyebrow twitched. A: I had the expected response, yes. R: But I definitely think George Carl is someone to look out for precision physicality and ridiculous comedy and every-man sensibility and physical impossibility all rolled into one. And I think it's someone really to look at. So that was someone that really stuck with me. And then I later found out that I had, like, at least two people that I had put on the hero shelf took from that person. That actually really demolished me, because then I realized there was this lineage going back very far that clearly what I couldn't see was who George Carl ripped off. A: Yes. R: And I couldn't see that. But at the time, I go, "The world is made of lies!" and moved on. So George Carl was one. Another one, I got to go to the London mime festival and while I was there, there was a show by a clown called Leandre, who apparently started as a street performer. And I say apparently because I don't know much about Leandre, and this will be something I will not look up. And I'll explain why in a moment. Leandre did the show called 'Nothing to Say'. And in very few moments, I walked in, I sat down. He owned the audience. We loved him. He did every nuanced bit, from these beautiful, poetic moments to making weird pee jokes- We've come full circle- A: *laughs* R: You know, to dangerous physical stunts to little delicate things all in silence and big whimsical things. So many things. And then it was over in a flash, and I took a deep breath, and I got up, and I walked out of the theater because I knew I had a chance of meeting him, and I didn't want it ruined for me because it was so good. And I felt so connected to this idea that I knew that whatever reality was behind it was going to ruin it. And I literally ran out of a theater. Like, as a business decision, that is stupid. Chance to connect with other people in the industry, all these people standing around and know each other? I ran from the theater, and to this day, I never looked this person up because I'm like something felt good. A: So what I'm hearing here is that we will include a link to whatever we can find. R: Nope. A: But I'm the one who's going to have to find it for the link there. R: Nope A: You're not going to put a link in? R: No, I'm not going to, because something should- You know what? I've given you all the clues you need. Leandre, London Mine festival, Nothing to Say. If you want to look it up, this one, you get to look up on your own. A: Okay. R: And here's why. It's not because I'm trying to create some puzzle for people. There's no great reveal or secret. I specifically saw something that moved me, and I didn't want to dissect it. And it's very rare that you see something iconically that you don't want to take it apart. And like, I could tell as a person sitting in the audience, "Oh, that was years of street performance, and that was theatrical work, and that was this." I mean, yes, I could do that, but the whole was so good. I just wanted to let it be. And so it's the only time I've ever not dissected something. I ran in a fit of peak A: Okay. R: from this option. A: Okay, yeah. R: And then, and I'm going to make one more, and I'm going to make a point about all of them, A: Okay. R: I had an opportunity very shortly before he passed a handful of years ago, Papa Campa from the Campa Family Circus. He's a musical clown, absolutely fantastic, larger than life performer. A: I've seen Papa Campa. R: Yeah. A: He was wonderful. R: He's an amazing, amazing performer. So their whole family troupe is great. There's several generations of circus performers. Anyhow, I saw him do his thing in a smaller show, not a big tent show, a smaller show. And he does this thing were has coins that make noises, and it's this whole thing he did. And at the end of it, somebody has collected all these coins up, and they've got the scrim- the shows over, everyone's applauded and gone home. And the scrim comes down. So you can kind of still see the gauzy view of the stage, and you see waddling, fat, happy, musical, Papa Campa come tottering across the stage to the other wing, and he holds out his hand, and someone individually places all the coins in. The show is over. It's done. The lights have come up. I happened to be in the theater because I was moving slow, getting out of the chair that day. A: *Affirmative Noise* A: And he took the coins, and he bowed his head and he turned on his heel, and he dropped them in his pocket with one sound. And he walked across the stage, and he never looked at us. Because it was a ritual that clearly was entirely for him. I have no idea if it was an accident. I have no idea if it's what he does every show or did every show. What I know is that in that moment, there was this piece of poetry happening before me that was amazing. There was no way I could unpack it A: Yeah. R: -because it was just this little poetic visual moment that was not intended to be seen. And it gave an intimacy to the connection I had already had by being an audience to this performer that I treasure. And what I realized about these three examples I've given and go ahead and add Chaplin back into the mix. They are three heroes I can never meet. One, two, three, because they're dead, and one because I'm going to avoid until he's dead, not because I don't like him, but because I love him a little bit. And so I think one of the things is that as much as we say, don't have your heroes, and as much as we say, treat people as people, the personas of the clowns, the clown state, the performances. If you happen to catch one in an elevated place, just let it be. It's okay not to know how the magic trick is done, if it really made you feel something. And I think it's important because the minute you tear it to pieces and know, you stop caring about it and move on to the next thing, because that's how our brains work. So this is one of those mysteries I intentionally hold onto in my little strategic reserve of stuff I don't know and do not want to resolve. So that is the closest I can get to heroes. Is like, I don't know them so good. So they can't fail me. A: There you go. R: That is my answer. A: All right, well then the next question. R: Already. A: Well, I think that's where we are (the words "where we are" came out blurred together). R: Yeah, where we are. "where we are (blended sounds mimic)"? A: *exaggerates the noise of the blended together "where we are"* R: You okay? A: I'm fine. R: Look at me. How many fingers am I holding up? A: None. You're currently holding my shoulders. R: Good. A: Yes. R: You even did the thing, so everybody knew. A: I looked at everyone, yes. Hello. R: It was really nice. They feel really connected to you right now. As long as they don't get to know you too well, they're going to love you. A: It's perfect. All right. So, the next question is, "Are there any acro gags that will work in a confined space?" R: Huh. I look up at the ceiling and start doing math. So we are currently, as we have long since established, stand or sit on the floor of a closet that the ceiling is a bit low, the walls are very confined, there's stuff everywhere, and it's a very small space. There's maybe a two foot, two foot on the floor and then we go up from there. We're sort of piled in the corner, and I wrote something- we just cleaned with a drawing board that we use for keeping our notes on. I just cleaned up a bunch of notes, and I wrote one down that stuck with me that's totally about this. And it said, "When you are learning something new, you need a lot of space to make mistakes. And once you are getting to the point where you are doing it, then you can do it in a very granular way, but you need the room to fail so you can learn to do precisely". A: Oh, I think that's definitely true. R: And I loved this idea, and I've been thinking about this a lot recently. So this works for me. I know, you know, logistically, we can get into any trick we can fit through the door, and waddle our way in here. And at the start of our acrobatic explorations, we were jokingly- Not so jokingly, told by some acrobats, "Get rid of your stepladder. You don't need one anymore. And that's how you start, because you just climb on each other. When you need to do something taller than arm length, you don't get a chair anymore". A: Yeah, we did this. And now anytime- Okay, We didn't do this, actually, that's exactly the thing. We didn't, we still have a step ladder. R: I didn't realize it was relationship advice. That anytime the stepladder comes out, somebody else gives this accusatory glare. A: Oh, yeah. Every time. Honestly, if we're both free, we will do an acrobatic- R: well, yeah. A: -something to get to whatever high shelf we're trying to get at. But if we're being kind to the other person, who's currently in the middle of something, and we pull out the stepladder, there is just that glare from the other side of the room. R: J'accuse! J'accuse. A: How dare you? I'm so hurt. And then we move on with whatever it is we're doing because- R: But to answer the question, and we did things like when we were working at the residency, they would ask us to hang rigging from the ceiling and so I would pop you on top of me. A: Oh yeah, we're tall R: Yeah, we're tall and we don't take up a lot of space, and you don't wreck the mats because you're not a ladder. A: Exactly. R: That's what we were for. So I think you can do a lot of things like that and taking it further, and then you have to think about the space you're in. There are walls. I don't know how structural these walls are, but I think about walls and I remember the very first narrative theater project I worked on. You know, a lot of circus is variety, and maybe it's a bunch of acts that all have a theme, but there's sort of not a plot. We decided to do a story, an actual end to end- we were going to write a show that has a plot. And this show was set in an office space, and it was called Almost Five. And one of the things about it is it was in a theater that was very small. It was called the Bathhouse Cultural Center, which is a really lovely theater I've spent years working at. And the thing about it is the ceiling height is really low in the theater, on stage. Outside the stage, you got massive height, but- A: Yeah. R: -you put your foot on the stage, it's nine foot six or nine foot eight to the lighting grid. It's ridiculously small. And when they put a light on you, it just feels like you're being cooked. And additionally, there's this sort of fur down because the building was a historic boathouse. A: Yeah. R: So there's this concrete fur down in the front of the stage, and that makes it beautiful- for a show in a black box theater, it's this beautiful, intimate show, and you have this beautiful black frame, but it's a concrete frame that cuts another foot off that height, so you have no height and you have very little room. Now, as a performer, I love this because I am literally just arms reach away from my audience. I feel very connected to them. They're very connected to me. As long as I use mouthwash and deodorant, everyone's very happy. When we were developing the show, and I can't take any credit for this, when we were developing the show, the two acrobats in the show, they had a fight scene, and it wasn't stage combat, it was more like a dancey acrobatic exploration, but it was absolutely representative of a physical altercation. It was a big moment in the show, and we were handling it with a lot of delicate care and we kept looking at this low ceiling, and you know, a lot of the tricks were like, how do we dodge that problem of the low ceiling? A lot of floor work, a lot of this, a lot of that. And they kept coming back to it, and they said, "You know, we think we can use this". And so how it played out after some exploration, was one of them grabbed the other and threw them into the concrete pillar that made up the side of this thing and flipped them upright and got underneath them, and they began to cross the stage swinging their fists in the air like they're still punching at each other while one is balanced on the back of the other, feet- One set, the base's, feet are on the ground, and the flyers feet are pressed against on the back, pressed against the ceiling, and they're literally walking back to back, throwing punches at the air as they cross the stage. No more than what, two, 3ft from the audience? A: Oh, very, very close to the audience. Yeah. R: Oh, it was insane. And it was one of those things where the compressed space, because rather than letting it be a limitation, we let it be a creative constraint. It created this really interesting visual moment that was beautiful. A: It was breathtaking. I had started doing some things with Circus Freaks by that point, but I wasn't part of the main team- R: No. A: -and I wasn't part of the rehearsals for that show at all. R: No. A: So the first time I got to see that was as an audience member. And it was- that particular move was just breathtaking R: Full marks to them. Good move. A: -and astounding because it just defied logic. Your brain said that's not possible, despite the fact that it was clearly happening in front of you. R: And so what I was getting at was this idea that sometimes when you have these cool constraints, you can use them. If I try to stretch my arm out and pretend I'm not going to hit the wall and then do what an actor does, you know, I stare off in the middle of the distance, and if a cell phone rings and I have to pretend it didn't happen, and as a clown, if I look off into the distance, the phone rings and I turn and I look and I say, "Would you mind turning that thing off? I'm trying to act here". There's a very funny fourth wall break moment that is kind of the purview of the clown. A: Yeah. R: And I think when you engage with the physical reality of a space, big or small, and you find some way to really put it in the space with the audience, it breathes a different kind of life into it. And I think that's part of what I love doing in improvisation. And whenever we get to develop for- it's rare and only a handful of times, you get to actually develop a show for a venue. And when you do, write something like that in. Most of the time you hit the venue with your show and you take a look around and go, "Oooh, We're going to use that" and you adjust your show to work, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And it still works. But it's a different experience than finding something organic like that in the room. A: Yeah. R: So in here. Yeah. I think we could probably squish against the walls or something or do something squatty and weird, but it would be uncomfortable. A: Yeah. R: I turn the question on you because I think I've rambled it. "Are there any acro gags that will work in a confined space" Cannonball! A: As we've mentioned, yes, there are. I think one of the things that you run into with the technicality of acrobatics in particular is that the balances are so precise that something that I didn't know until we ran into it, literally, by- even in the larger spaces that we were working, we somehow ended up a bit closer to a wall than we expected to. And- R: Sorry. A: And so suddenly I was at the point where if I wanted to extend my arm, I was going to hit the wall. So I did. And I didn't hit it, like I'm not saying I hit it hard. I'm saying I recognized the wall was there, and then I touched the wall and, oh, my gosh. Making contact with a solid object like that just through the balance. R: The stack. A: Yeah, it's through the balance completely. We had to really catch it. R: *Affirmative Noise* A: There are ways to explore with that. There are ways to do something with that. R: You end up training to it. A: But if you're not expecting it, it really makes a difference. R: A lot of these things are much more dynamic and delicate than they look. A: Yes. R: And I think that's going to play into anything you try to explore. A: Yeah. Much of the actual risk in doing many of the acrobatic tricks we do is actually in the entry into the trick and the exit from the trick because there's kind of a static point, which is where we stop. We take a moment, we look at the audience and the audience claps. That point is typically a little bit safer because it's- when it comes to whether or not you're going to run into the edges of your more enclosed space. So one of the things I've noticed when we do things like need to reach the tall shelf in the very small kitchen is, we will get into the trick- R: And then step over A: And then step or walk to the place and then come back out from the small space in order to come back down. But that being said, there's also, I mean, you've mentioned at least one example of using a space that's smaller. A lot of what I know with different- it's a different thing but I learned how to spin diablo in a basement in Iowa. So I learned a lot of the low and fast tricks, which is not normal for that particular tool because a lot of that's- R: This card says acro gags, A: This is talking about acro specifically R: Because I immediately thought about all the other prop stuff and physical stuff we do and how much of it would be better suited juggling hats would be way better suited to being in a closet full of hats than trying to climb up there and get them. A: This is true. However, on the topic of climbing up there, I believe I have credited the book that taught me how to juggle, which was the Jug- R: The necronomicon. A: No, it was 'Juggling for the Complete Klutz' R: Oh, the other one. A: And Klutz, the company which started with that book. That was the first book. But Klutz, the company had released many other books since, and there was one, and I've forgotten the title. But it had something to do with shenanigans because specifically shenanigans that kids could get up to that are fun for kids and I believe the statement was tolerated by adults. So the idea was- R: That's a sales pitch that pretty much describes us A: Very much R: "Loved by kids, tolerated by adults". A: And one of the things that I learned from that book was how to shimmy up walls in small spaces like closets and door frames. R: Oh, you're kidding. A: Yeah. R: I kind of want to see you do it. A: So I don't know if I can still do it. I have not tried in many years. But essentially, there's the idea that you can press your back into one side of a closet or a doorway and you press your feet into the other. R: *understanding aaaaah* A: And the key part is keeping that tension. R: You shimmy A: and then you shimmy your way up R: Like an assassin. A: Yes, but this was specifically framed in the context of how to win at hide and seek. R: How did I not know you could do this? Because I'm never going to walk in a room without checking first again. A: But it was specifically in the context of hide and seek, because people don't look low and people don't look high. People really don't change their view very much. They'll look at what is directly in front of them, what they can see within- from that range. They'll look up if there is a reason to. So, they pointed out that while under the bed is a place while under the bed is a classic. It actually is a decent place to hide if you are hiding from an adult, because nobody wants to look under the bed. And then two, up. R: Okay, A: If you can get up, go up. R: I have to stop you now because you realize that as you know, many people find us calming, soothing, and relaxing during these podcasts. And you've talked about tonight farting, peeing, and dropping out of the ceiling like some sort of weird assassin spider monster. A: Oh, no, don't drop. You need to shimmy your way back down. Otherwise you'll hurt yourself. R: Like I said, I think now we need to just some deep cleansing breaths and you read another question. R: *deep breath* A: Okay. R: It's good. Just again, *deep breath* A: You have moved these around. R: No, I haven't. *deep breath* A: Oh, no, you haven't. I just can't read. Okay. R: There you go. See? You can't read. You're not very smart. Everything's fine. Everything's normal again. You don't have to worry. I've checked up. A: It's your turn to read a question. R: Is it? A: Yeah. R: Oh, okay. Well then- I'll do that and you will not cling to the ceiling. I am really freak- I don't know why that's so upsetting. A: Why does that freak you out so much? R: I don't know. Because like, you're going to drop down out of the ceiling, A: Noo, R: I'm going to hear some "Yeaow"*boom(vocal sound effect)* A: No, I'm like stuck. It is not- it is not a way- R: I think it's because I didn't know you could do this. A: So, to be clear, when you're up there like you're not dropping down, you are stuck. R: I think- A: Unless you start sliding. R: Yeah. A: It's a very awkward back down. It is not a comfortable- R: Unless you land on your prey and murder them instantly. Yes, I got it. So other than the thing you just said, "What's the strangest thing you've had to explain either as yourself or as a clown?" A: I think that might have been it. R: I think you may have just landed. A: I think that might have been it. Right now, just there. R: Well then, what about the second half? A: As a clown? R: Yeah. You got anything there? A: Things that my clown has explained. I'm confident there are several, mostly because Jane has no tolerance for the fact that people don't understand things. And so will inform them about things quite a bit. R: You're a pedant. A: Yes. R: One of those flags that waves in the air. Wait, that's pennant. A: Yeah, that's a pennant. R: *hmn* A: But there was a particular explanation that was very formative for Jane, I think. R: Do tell. A: Actually, I don't know if it's formative, but it's very, very- R: Evocative A: Very evocative. It was a thing. R: It might have been its own sort of life content warning, A: Kind of. Yes. R: If you let this in the room, this is the kind of crap you'll have to deal with A: This is what you're going to get. R: Yeah. A: So, there is an exercise that we sometimes bring to the lab called 'the Expert'. And the premise of it is that you are going to come to the stage and you are going to give a talk about this thing that you are a subject matter expert on. R: It is worth pointing out that you don't get any time to prepare. In fact, the question is on a folded up piece of paper on stage waiting for you. A: That was what I was about to say. R: Yeah, A: That's the premise R: It's intense, it's intense. A: The premise is then you walk out onto the stage, you draw the question out of a hat, and you now have to be a subject matter expert on answering that question and you don't know what it's going to be until you get there. And you're not allowed to lie, and you're not allowed to make things up. You just have to be honest and answer it. But you also can't admit that you don't know anything about the topic if you don't know anything about the topic. So it's a real challenge. And the first time I brought Jane in costume, full dress, ready to explore, to a workshop we were running this exercise. So Jane did this exercise and Jane walked out and drew the question, "How do you make the best breakfast?" And honestly, at this point, I don't remember a lot of what she said. R: It was a ten minute TED talk outlining the answer to this question with emphatic truths. A: I do remember that the key element, like the immediate impulse statement, R: The nugget, A: The nugget was that you come up with what it is you like to eat and make that. And eat it. A that was her opinion as she went on to defend it. She went on to explain more about it. And I don't remember any of that. I know it happened. And then I got off stage and I was kind of a bit shaken up about this because while I don't mind what anybody else chooses to eat or not eat, for me, when I wake up and I'm having my first meal of the day, when I break my fast, it has to be food in the category 'Breakfast Food' R: Or your day is ruined. A: Yeah. I do not like a situation where I have overslept everyone's having lunch, and I'm supposed to eat whatever is now lunch. Not my thing. R: I have seen you eat a piece of toast and then have lunch just to break the curse. A: Yeah. R: This is like a thing you're weird about. A: It's a thing I'm weird about. R: We were all- There were 17 of us in this room who knew you pretty well, and we were all standing there jaw hanging open at this nonsense you spewed us because we didn't know where it came from. A: Because that's not my truth. R: No, it was somebody else. A: It is something I do feel for other people. Like, yeah, eat whatever you like. But like, that is not my truth. My truth is breakfast food needs to be category 'Breakfast Food'. Granted, category breakfast food includes leftover pizza from the fridge. There are a few things that are strange in that category for me, but they have to be in that category for me or that I have a bad time. So hearing Jane explain in such detail the level to which, like, she went on a rant about the arbitrary delineations between food concepts. Because food is food and like there is no such thing as- I think I said the words, the words came out of my mouth, "There's no such thing as breakfast food". That is the furthest from my reality that one can that I can have on this topic. Like that is straight opposite of my opinions for myself. So that was bizarre. R: It was pretty strange. One might say. A: Yes. One might say it was extremely strange. R: It's funny. When the clown comes in the room with an opinion, you will immediately know whether or not the performer is lying as a character or whether or not you're seeing something honest happen. And there was a room full of people that were like "That was a real thing". And anyone in there who didn't know you well enough to know this particularly weird detail about you- A: Just assumed it was truth. R: Yeah, I mean it was, A: Just assumed that's what I meant. R: But it was- A: - because it was what Jane meant. R: It was very funny. And honestly, it was the day that I took a deep breath and went, "Wow, Jane is going to be a real problem in every workshop and every performance". And that is proven to be completely true. A: It is true. R: It's great because you want that, then what I said at the time, I remember this. I said at the time, you want in an ensemble of supportive performers, you want that pushy person because they're fun- A: Yes. R: When everybody loves each other, but you have somebody who's pushy, you get to have a lot of fun with that ensemble. If everyone's just over agreeable, nothing ever happens, A: There's no tension R: There's no conflict. Nothing ever happens. And that's talking about theater, not about people. We're talking about characters, not reality. We want to work together. A: Yeah, yeah yeah. R: Okay, so there you go. Good answer. A: All right. "What's the strangest thing you've had to explain either as yourself or as a clown" or both, if you'd like. R: I'll take a shot at both. A: All right R: I'll take a shot of both. Let's see. As me, because I'm sitting here, these are my pants. A: Yes. R: I'm near somebody else's pants, but I'm in my pants. So, when I am not wearing those pants, but I'm wearing these pants and I am not training and things are a little more normal. I do a lot of teaching as we've sort of established A: *Affirmative Noise* R: Teacher of arts du being an idiot. Arts du idiot. The arts of idiot. I like it. A: So every time you said arts just then, because of the accent that you seem to have applied to it, I did not hear the word arts. R: I was hoping I could sneak it through. A: Okay, R: Okay, A: Moving on. R: Where was I? Oh, yeah. So I teach and what I find most fascinating and the way people's brains work lights me up. I love it, the way people interact. I just dig it. But the thing that I always find baffling is having to teach full grown adults, in many cases, wise learned adults how to play catch. And I don't mean, like, sport. I don't mean like, game of sports ball. I mean, like, I have a ball. I throw it to you get very excited about that and throw it to someone else. Now there's a deeper philosophical lesson that's embedded in that and everything else. But at the end of the day, I am literally brought in as an expert in playing catch with a red rubber ball. A: Yes. R: That's a little strange to me on the meta. A: Yes. R: And so I think it has always struck me as a little odd. Now, I understand that we are in a culture that there is a deficit and dearth of actual play. I don't mean games of synthetic achievement. I mean actual A: Play. R: Play for its own sake. And that that skill atrophies without use. I understand that. And yet some part of my brain just thinks it's really weird that I have to remind people to play catch without a goal. A: Yeah. R: So that's very strange to me. So that's to me. As a clown, because I said I would. You know, and this is not schadenfreude in play, but whenever the clown has a really good show. A: Yes. R: As a performer, as a person, that clown has probably had a really bad day. If you think about it, like, if you step back and you think about what's happened to them, "I walked on the stage. I got rampaged by the audience. They took my balloon. I walked up on the stage, my pants fell off, and I tried to leave, but somebody threw a big heavy wood thing at me. And then a bunch of people kicked me. Then somebody walked on me. Then I left. I found some pants, and I got my heart broken. So then I left, and I came back, and someone in the audience shot me with an imaginary gun. And so I had to die. And then people jumped all over me. Then I stood up, and everybody made a lot of noise". I've just described the actual experience of being the person who survived one of the best shows I've ever performed in. A: Yup. R: I'm leaving out a lot of costume changes and specifics of performances. But if you take the meta of the clown's experience, they're having a terrible day, and they're just like, "I just don't know what happened". And I think it's really funny because no one's poking fun, no one's going, "ha ha, you're bad". They're enjoying the fact that they overcame those things. They're enjoying having watched the journey. But there's always this part of me that has this meta knowledge that, "Wow, this clown is going to need a hug when all this is over. It's been a tough day. They're going to want to rest". A: Has your clown ever explained that? R: Yes. And that's the problem. A: Oh no. R: You see, because someone said "Your show was great!" to me after a show. And you remember I said, I always keep a snack backstage? A: This is before? R: I hadn't gotten to the snack. Somebody said, "Your show was at such a great time". I said, "No, I had a terrible time!". And I told them all of that. And they looked at me like I was insane. A: Fair. R: That's what they said as they walked backwards. And I realized at that point, my blood sugar was probably in a place that needed some correction. I stepped back, and I sorted that out. But it's a really weird experience, because the clowns' experience of the events, if they're living it in the moment, are intense. A: Oh, yeah. R: And they're bizarre A: Yes. R: If you think about the things that have happened to them, not as trickery that we as performers have created but experiences that they are having. They've been through some stuff. A: Yes. R: A ghost gave my clown a hat and said it was okay for them to wear it. You know, there's weird stuff that happens. A: Yes, R: There's just like, I think about it. That's like a particular performance but I think about all the stuff that I have is very bizarre for them. So. Yeah, that's it. That's my answer. A: All right. R: All right. Whose question? Your question A: I believe it's my question. R: Okay. A: Oh, it looks like this is the final question. R: Final question, well good A: That we have today. R: We've been doing well, breezing through. I feel like we've told some good stories. You've been attentive and listening the entire time. Even when we talked about pee, existential crisis, Ninja drops from the ceiling. I'm very proud of you if you've made it this far A: I second that. R: What's the question? A: The question is "How many clowns can you fit in that closet? Two seems like you're not really trying". R: This is about the clown car thing. A: This is definitely the clown car thing. R: The clown car doesn't have anything in it. They take the seats out and then the people that are put in there? They might as well be dating by the time they're done because they're intimately close with each other. There's a lot of sweat on sweat. A: Yeah, they literally stack everybody yeah? R: Yeah, like cordwood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a thing you want. But the truth, if we're perfectly honest there are a lot of clowns in here right now. A: Oh well that's true. R: That's true. Like for example I'm one clown in a closet A: And I am a second clown in a closet R: (in an accent) and I'm a third clown in the closet. A: (in another accent) And I'm a forth clown in a closet. R: (in another accent) Yeah, right here I'm a, I'm a how many are? The fifth clown in a closet. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. A: (in another accent) I'm a sixth clown in a closet. R: (in another accent) I'm one of many clowns in this closet. A: (in another accent) I'm the eighth clown in this closet. R: (in another, muffled, accent) I'm the ninth clown in a closet, it's very crowded in here! A: (in another accent) I'm the tenth clown in a closet. R: (in another accent) I'm the eleventh clown in this closet. Practically a dozen. A: I am out of funny voices, so I guess we fall just short of a dozen clowns in this closet. R: Ooh, I was so excited. What you might have brought. That was good. A: That was good. It was fun. R: That was good. A: It was a fun little impromptu exercise. R: There you go. Well you're done. Always make silly voices, drink extra water. Remember to run to the bathroom before you turn upside down and we'll see you next time right here on A: 'Two Clowns in a Closet' A: Just the two though because it's a small room A: Yes. R: Alright. Ready? A: Ready. *sound of door opening*