----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 10 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-12-05 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Russ: Hello my friend! Liam: Hello hello! R: Before we begin today I would like to register a complaint. L: Okay R: As I settle into the pile of blankets that are here in our very chilly closet, we had so much content warning and preparation and build up and explanation I felt like we lacked witty banter. L: You know, I think you're probably right. R: I want to complain about a lack of witty banter formally. I want to go on record as saying our banter was not there, it was not on point and I- I expect you to do better with me in the future as we fail together. L: Do you realize that you just use the phrase on point? R: Correctly in a sentence L: Correctly in a sentence, yeah. R: Yeah, I did. What's your point? L: I don't know really. R: Do want to go with- L: My brain- my- my, my brain was substituting "on fleek" and I thought you'd used like, one of those hip words and then I realized, after I said it, that really you just said "On point" Which- which is actually a ballet term and I don't know why it's a thing. R: So I'm being pretentious and French and you're trying to be hip. That's what just happened here. L: I actually tried to point out that you were trying to be hip but you weren't. I was wrong. R: You failed. Your check it- I'm old enough that we do not do jokes involving me being hip because we're always a little bit afraid that I might sprain one, dislocate one, or break one. So you can pretty much guarantee that I'm never gonna be that person. However, I think considering you just tried to throw me under a bus and missed, my complaint about banter is sorted now and with that in mind I feel like we've once again stumbled up a flight of stairs, stopped at a landing were interestingly there is a hat rack which I've never mentioned before, -I'm fleshing out the universe you see- L: Ahh, very nice. R: Yeah, so there's a hat rack there which the only reason I own is because it's been on stage, we're going to turn the corner, walk through a door across across a room full of crap into a closet to sit down with you who's going to mock me about my own relative lack of hip so we can do this wonderful thing that we call L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Brought to you by L: Us? R: Two Clowns L: oh, yeah, two clowns in a closet. R: That's why we gave it the name. Yeah L: Yeah R: Yeah L: Yes. R: So we're here and I'm excited because- because now we're doing- we're doing an episode with the cards. L: Yes first episode with- with our question cards. R: You know because we- we did a- we did a recap, what you missed. L: Yes R: And now- now we're going to do the thing and I'm- I'm excited. L: I am also excited. I do have a question though. R: You have a question L: And admittedly, by the time that anybody's- everybody's listening to this they'll probably know the answer to this but I don't right now because we're- we're recording this in the past. Was last episode episode zero? Or episode one? R: Or was it episode nine? Oooh. L: I think would have only been episode eight. R: No, no. L: If you're talking about the beginning- last episode. R: Oh, last episode. This would be episode nine or season two episode two? One? L: See! This is my question. R: Gaah. I don't know. I say, if I may be so bold, that this is a continuance of the shenanigans that we do here. L: Okay R: And- and I'm- I'm willing to accept whatever judgment as to numeric L: Values? R: Sure that's a good- thank you for- You see! I was near the bus and you pulled me back at the last second. That's the banter I need. L: That's what we need. R: Thank you. L: Not so much me throwing you under one but me pulling you back. R: So I don't- L: Got it. R: So I don't mumblingly stumble into the street. L: Correct R: Why is so much of today's theme about me stumbling around like a fool? I don't know. L: Two clowns- R: Oh yeah L: In the closet. R: That's a good name for the show really. L: Yeah, it really is. R: Really, we should keep that. But yeah, okay so we have forgotten how to do this apparently. L: Clearly R: but we have cards and all we have to do is take turns reading them to each other and then answer them and then everybody goes home happy, except for us, we're already happy and already at home. L: Yes, R: So, L: but we will be allowed back out of the closet R: and given snacks L: and probably some tea, it is cold R: It is cold. All right, with that in mind, I've got the cards. I'm going to get us on the rails. We may go off the rails by the time it's done. L: But let's start there R: 'cause it's a nice place to start L: Yeah. R: Everything seems calm and then you go nuts. I got it. Here's my glasses, they're on my face. Here's the cards, which you wrote in your beautiful handwriting and here is the first question of this episode. "Is the burning of the house clown scene from 'Dumbo' something based on real shows or just pure fantasy?" L: That is something based on real shows. R: It is L: Yeah, that's- that is a classic American clown set up and a classic American clown gag. That's been used in circuses across America for a very, very, very, very, very long time because a lot of- so the, the cool thing about things like that gag is, you have a set up very quickly established, where people understand what's going on. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Because you see, for anybody who has not seen 'Dumbo' and I have only seen the old animated film. I have no- I- I know there's been a newer one? They- they redid it. I have not seen it and I don't know how that went. R: I didn't know that had happened, So yeah, okay there's stuff for us to watch. L: but the scene essentially looks like this. You have- you have a set piece that looks like a house and either through actual flame effects or through lights and/or lights and streamers you have evidence that that house is on fire. R: Standard comedy L: Yeah R: What?? You're going to agree to that? Keep going, keep going, you're explaining the gag. L: Sometimes fire is in play in standard comedy. House is on fire, somebody is trapped in the top floor of the house. A troupe of- the troupe of clowns, because it's the same clowns that you would have would have seen earlier in the circus show, come in in their fire-fighter gear and have to go about rescuing their compatriot, from this burning house and that can play out in many different ways. R: But hopefully in a funny way because L: That's the goal, the goal is that ends up in a funny way. R: they're clowns in a circus. L: In- in the film, I believe the way that that tends to go down is, they go to catch- they have Dumbo being the- R: The baby, it's the baby L: The baby in the window and I believe they have a set up where they're supposed to catch him in a- in a trampoline, one of the- the carry out trampolines but it's intentionally a breakthrough one so he ends up in like a bucket of water instead or something like that. I don't remember because it's been a really long since I've seen the film. R: Suds. L: Yeah R: It's always suds. L: Suds and, you know, it's- I remember Dumbo being very sad about this but the- the, the clown presentation tends to be quite funny about it, in theory. R: In theory? L: I don't know if it actually is funny, I've never actually seen it done. R: You haven't seen this one? L: I've never seen this one done. R: Oooh. L: I know that it's been done for years R: Oooh. L: but I've never actually seen it done. I do know that done with somebody who is a skilled performer R: Some sort of acrobat. L: Yes, some sort of acrobat, it's done in a very safe way, it's done in a way that- that ends up being a surprise but funny. R: You know why that is? There's a shortage of flying elephants. L: Yes. You definitely don't end up with the surprise ending from the Dumbo film where the elephant flies. That, typically, not the way it's done. Also typically, that's not them throwing an animal performer as the baby. R: I don't know that that's ever been done live. L: I don't know that that's ever been done. R: and I hope it hasn't because I don't- I don't actually like working on shows with animals. So, L: and definitely not something where they would endanger the animals R: No, no. L: That seems very un- unlike the way that the business of circus is done because you don't endanger your animals they're expensive. Even if you don't feel like they're- they're beings with- that need to be respected and have care given to them, which I do, but even if you don't think that, they're expensive. You don't risk them. R: I love watching the look on your face that realizes that it's about to get letters and then you say more, then it goes away and then you know you're done talking and I just watched it happen and it's a thing to see that I know everyone's gonna miss and, you're probably still getting letters. L: Oh probably, R: We hope we're getting letters. L: Look I can be aware that it's done as a business and that sometimes the decisions are business decisions, while still feeling like a human being who cares about things. R: I'm glad you're a human being that cares about things. L: So, I will turn this around and ask you, because I know that I've only got a- a basic idea of it, "Is the burning house clown scene from 'Dumbo' something based on real shows or just pure fantasy?" R: I love how after several old jokes about me we're now going to count on my wisdom to- to bring this home. L: Please tell me that you know more about history than I do. R: *Laughs* Well, having lived through some of it! Yeah, it's a classic. It is a classic American ring gag. Usually it's done, you have a troupe of clowns and I- I always joke the clowns are like Barbie, you know, you can take- take Barbie, put Barbie in an astronaut suit, it's Astronaut Barbie but it's always Barbie. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The clowns do the same thing. They throw on the fire fighter gear, they dress up like a baby, they are still their clowns doing this very self aware bit of physical comedy. In American clown, in circuses especially, when you go on a show you're taught a gag and the idea is it's like a jazz standard, Here's the- here's the choreography, here's the basic idea, now what you bring to it is you. L: Yes R: Interestingly European clown theater takes the opposite approach. The theater side of it looks at it and says get rid of all the gags, and what's stil- get rid of all the- the shenanigans and the schtick and of the ways we hide and what's left is really the clown. L: Yes R: So it's a- it's a completely different approach ironically to ar- to arrive at the same exact place. Now I haven't done this gag but I have done some of the big arena gags and in fact you and I worked on- in a show we worked on a classic gag by a clown I really adore who has long since passed, Otto Griebling did a boxing ring gag L: Oooh, yeah R: and this is a classic- there is film of it out there if you can find it, but it's a- you set up a boxing ring and you have you have the champ, who's the bad guy and it just overacted and that's usually Otto Griebling, you have the chump who's the new challenger and then you have the referee which in the version we did you played. L: Yes R: and what this amounts to, after several rounds of fighting is that the champ takes a swing at the chump, the chump ducks and the referee get hit and then the referee knocks out the champ, leaving the chump as the victor of- of the- of the bout. L: Yes, and you played to the champ R: I did L: I played the ref and so that meant that I got to just lay you out. R: you did in front of about five hundred people punch me in the face. L: That was a blast R: I love how happy you look right now. What I enjoy and this is an example of that 'what you bring to it' we took that gag, that simple idea, and there are all these moments where 'okay and a thing happens', you know, 'what does each round of the boxing match look like?' and we brought our own stuff to it. We brought our own ideas to it. I had the idea that I really wanted to get the audience physically involved, so we had audience members up on stage holding the rope that became the boxing ring and one of them had a bell and one of them held up signs, so we had these extra elements but the idea was that was what we as a performing company and as our clowns brought to it, was the way we played it. L: Yes R: So I think there it was actually a really good example of this sort of gag, the sort of gang like the burning house, not that I'm as big a fan of burning houses- as apparently you are, but I loved- I loved the idea that we can have- we can have this basic thing that everybody involved knows and then it's really to show off what these silly people do. L: Yeah and I think one of the things that I find interesting, because you pointed out, you know, not a fan of burning houses, and nobody's a fan of actually a fan of houses burning R: I hope not L: and I mean boxing, plenty of people enjoy boxing that's legitimately happening but- R: Confession, not a sports person, had to actually look up information about boxing to be able to do the boxing gag. Just wanna put it out there. L: but I think one of the things that's interesting is that so much of circus, you have your skill performers and a big part of a lot of the presentation of skill performance is heightening the concept of the danger involved and there is legitimately danger involved, but the idea is to make it seem very dramatic and very potentially dangerous on top of whatever actual danger is there. R: I like flipping this on it's head, I've had a- I've have had an act where I actually got permission from another clown to steal their act, I actually called them up and asked, and they do a high dive act into a sponge L: Yes R: and so it- it is impossibly silly and- and you've inverted the danger because you've gone so far with the premise of diving off a chair into a sponge that there's no way that that's actually a real thing and then I put my own spin on, you put your on stuff on it L: and that's the thing, is that when you see clowns performing, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: -for the most part because I've seen a couple of examples where this isn't the case, but for the most part when clowns perform, you're never afraid that someone's actually going to get hurt. R: well, they're like cartoons L: They are like cartoons they bounce, no one's gonna get hurt. So the minute that you see the clowns coming out or the clowns stuck in the burning building, R: We know. L: It's the clowns, we know everyone's gonna be safe, we know it's all- like, we know that it's likely to go wrong R: but everyone's coming out L: -but at the end of the day everyone's coming out okay. R: You know the other thing, it's worth mentioning as people are- are fans of the behind the scenes stuff that we talk about, usually these big set pieces are also an opportunity while this big perform- like if you think about a multi ring circus this big performance thing is going on here, there are people moving equipment outside of the spotlight, there are things, it is being used not only is an opportunity to highlight the clowns but also to do some architectural move in the show. L: Oh yeah, because you got this huge set piece R: Right and- and all the attention is there L: So no one can see anything behind it and- R: Yeah L: No one can see anything going on behind it and all the attention is really focused in the- in- whatever ring and that's going on in. R: I like that in- in our smaller, more intimate shows that we've done, that we use that same idea. Like, we will do a little piece of something here that kind of redirect focus and energy and attention while we're setting up for the next big thing and I think- L: Oh, yeah R: That it also provides a lot of, I call it shape, when you're building variety shows, you have to have the big act, the soft act, the- if you put something sad you have to kind of bracket it with something happy, if you put something daredevil-ish and intense you want to have something to kind of make it feel better on either side of it. L: Exactly and so that that's the thing, is that you've got all these daredevil-ish and intense things and then even if you've got something where the setting is theoretically dangerous R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Because you're dealing with clowns, you're letting off some of that tension, you're blowing off that tension R: Oh sure L: So you have you know, you have your high wire act where everyone is terrified and yes, everyone claps and there is some release of tension at the end but you still need to steam valve the end of that R: Absolutely L: out R: Absolutely L: and let people relax and let people calm down, and so getting to see somebody who does a silly high dive, which isn't that high and- R: I jumped off a chair L: Well, I was thinking that- there is a high dive in the- in many versions of- of that- R: oh yeah yeah L: of the burning house gag, where it's set up like there is no danger R: Sure L: it lets people release some of that tension. Which I think is good. R: I will say, my final thought on this, is that if you do see an act where you see somebody stumbling around being bad at something, like in a tight rope or- or a trampoline act, or any acrobatics stunt, if you see someone who's particularly clumsy they're probably the best one in the company L: in all likelihood. yeah, R: In all likelihood they're usually the best one doing that because it's so hard to convincingly and reliably do something badly. That's some- that's some Victor Borge piano playing nonsense with your body. L: Yes R: Yeah, I think we've- I think we've answered it. L: All right, Well now that we've explored a lot of that R: and- and accidentally shilled for Disney. I feel weird about that L: it's a little weird about that R: but it's alright, L: but it's fine R: It's all right, they do it for us L: they do. all right R: They don't *both laugh* L: No, that they- they've gotten the concept of clowns out there, although, admittedly those clowns got really drunk.. moving on! R: I was about to just reach over and grab you and pull you back from the bus. I saw you're looking out to see if it was there. L: I've got questions on cards, I'm gonna ask you one of them. R: At any point you could just remember that L: Yup, that's where I got to. I'm good. R: That's why I love this, L: I'm good. R: No matter how deep a hole I dig I'm safe! You were saying- L: "Do you have a least favorite gag or routine? If so what is it?" R: Oh I absolutely do. I have- I have a least favorite genre of thing. This stems out of the fact that I got to study with an amazing teacher named Avner Eisenberg, "Avner the Eccentric" and one of the things Avner is particularly known for is how well he works with audiences and it was something that I was very interested in because I enjoy it when it works, which is where you see someone go into the audience and get a person and then bring them on stage and Avner's whole take was that you want to give them the win. You want to make them look good. You want to make them have such a good idea- you know, a good time that the next person gets the idea that- that they might get to go up next and you want that- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: you want that feeling. What I hate- so that's that's what I learned, what I hate is when I see it done badly because when it's done badly it's- it feels like terrorism. You're going into the audience, you're grabbing someone who doesn't want to be there, you're pulling them on stage, you're using them as a prop and in- and at best you're making them feel bad, and at worst you're actually endangering them L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and it's funny because I got my start as a juggler before I moved into working as a clown L: yeah R: and- and the thing about that was, is one of the very common things jugglers are asked to do is, you know, juggle around people L: yeah R: and I- it always felt a little weird, but until I studied with Avner I didn't understand the reason why was I was literally saying "Well this this act isn't very interesting, so let's endanger somebody" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and the only inversion of that that ever played out was the most dangerous thing I've ever done as a juggler. Which, there was an act- we used to have a sword swallower and another juggler who- my juggling partner Alan at the time, and the sword swallower swallowed a seventh blade and we called the act "the Seven Blades". We juggled six knives around that and it took probably two years to get it down. L: Whoof R: I'd like to point out that all of those people are fine, they have just retired and gone on to other things. It is a spectacular act but it was the ultimate, once I knew better, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We put a performer there, we added the danger ourselves, we- we assess the risk. So I felt like, that that was a nice inversion of this idea of "don't use people as props" L: Oh yeah, I mean like, we have also done- we've, we've made parents feel bad R: Oh, or was gonna leave it- I was gonna it alone but it- there is this terrible problem, if you have two clowns and six juggling clubs and someone will grab their kids and say "Juggle around our kids for a photo!" They'll say that to you like they know it, and you go "Okay" and you- you, the first- L: You reassure the kids. R: You have to. You get down, you go "We are really good at this and we got you" and then you proceed to scare the parents L: Yes R: You have to say and if you- you know, "If you hear this sound *hitting two objects together* We're really sorry" L: and- and then- and then while juggling around the kids "Let's hear it for child endangerment!" R: yeah L: Which- which, if you've hyped up your- your little audience well enough, they'll do a half a cheer for and then they'll realize what you said and you hear it just- die. R: So one time I did this and we told the kids when we were down- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: reassuring them and making sure that they were- if they weren't onboard we weren't doing it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We told them when we say "Tada" go *raspberry noise* at the audience. So we go "Let's hear it for endangering your kids!" and the kids went *raspberry noise* and I- L: *laughs* R: I thought it was the perfect way to do that. I will say, I don't- I don't do that anymore. I don't like doing it. L: Yeah, it's- it's something for specific- specific times when it- when it seems right, and- and you know, I want to go back to some of- to- to the thing that you were pointing out, is when- when this is done really badly, because I've seen it down really badly by somebody who is really well respected and I'm not gonna call out who it was because I'm sure they're not the only one doing it. But I was at a performance that was organized as a very large celebration for a child's birthday. So it wasn't like, a birthday party, it was a stage show but it was for a kid's birthday and this performer dragged up the, I don't know eight? nine year old child? Dragged them up on stage, R: It's already sounding bad. L: Yeah, dragged them up on stage, put them in like, a half costume? Like something that you can easily put on, declared that she was the princess in this story he was going to tell. Shortly thereafter dragged up a young boy about the same age, up onto the stage, declared him the prince. Put some little piece of costuming on him. I don't even remember the whole story, but told a little- little fairy tale story, pressured these children to kiss on stage. R: What? Hang on, seriously? L: Seriously R: Oh no. *Negative noise* L: And both of these children looked mortified. R: Of course they did. L: They were not okay, they were not happy and I believe it was the girl's birthday like, I believe that was the birthday girl. R: Oh that's horrible, that's horrible. L: And there's a certain level where you- you look at that and you go "How on earth is this something that anyone ever does?" but I happened to be in the back of the theater, where I was standing next to the parents who had orchestrated this event, and they were laughing their heads off and they were quietly telling the story to another set of parents about how their child who was now in their late teens still had a problem hearing the name of the performer or hearing a couple of key terms R: Sure L: from the act because it was still a trauma that they had not yet processed and they were laughing about this R: That's- the I think the darkest reality of this sort of entertainment is the fact that children don't get to choose the performer, parents book the entertainment. L: Exactly R: and I think unfortunately, you will see this happen and if you're someone who's focus is on bookings and not doing good work, then you're gonna do what gets you hired and if that- I can see the- the sequence of events that leads that to becoming normalized and it's really horrible, considering how much work we put in to reducing trauma, reducing fear, providing steam valves for people. Working- if somebody comes to us and says "Hey, we have a friend who's afraid of- afraid of clowns can you spend time with them in a in a setting where they've consented to" and we work- my favorite compliment is when someone comes to us after show and says "I hate clowns, but I love you guys" when I hear that, I know we're doing our job because they don't hate clowns, they hate what you're describing. L: Yeah R: and I- I think that's- that's just, it's hard to hear L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because it is unfortunately, in every- and I think it's every every line of work it's so prevalent because big reactions are "funny" to people L: Yeah R: and, you know, and I've- I'm putting finger quotes around that, and I just- I just really dislike the idea that that's okay when, and this may come as a shock to many of those people, there are plenty of other ways to be really funny without using kids like props or instilling traumas or mocking or bullying people. You don't need to do any of that. L: No, you really don't. There's plenty of other ways that you can you can be funny and part of that is that the clown is who gets mocked or bullied or R: Right when- L: or whatever because that's the- that's the whole point, the point is that the clown can take it. R: They're- they're gonna be the ones that- they have the experience and you have- you as the audience have the empathy for it and ultimately they can come out the other side of that, and- and when they win, the audience, because they're being the avatar of the audience, the audience wins. L: The audience wins. Yeah. R: Exactly and that is- that's how I work, I know other people's mileage may vary but, don't- don't do that. L: Yeah, don't do that. R: Okay, well you've kind of answered this or did you? L: No, no, no, no. I have a- you know what? I have a way to turn this one around. Ask me the question. R: You have a way to turn around that you just- you just went on a soapbox tirade against terrible performers. L: I mean, I don't know if it turns it around completely but I do have an answer to this question that is a separate answer from the one you gave. R: Okay, let me ask you the question then. As we- I- see, I'm having to lift before- I don't feel like I should hand it yet. I'm like "Oh no, no" this is the instinct of the clown, "don't give that anyone else, no no, let me- let me be there with it.- L: "We must fix this!" R: -let me be here in the bad place for a minute." L: No, it'll be- it'll be alright. R: It'll be alright? L: It'll be alright. R: Okay. As long as it's not a complaint we'll be fine. *pause* L: No promises R: Oh, well L: *laughs* R: "Do you have a least favorite gag or routine? If so what is it?" L: Um, So, I'm going to- I'm going to frame this, the- the- what you've when you answered, you shared something that you don't do. R: No, I don't. That's where the definition of the least favorite thing is, that thing that I don't do. L: Which I, admittedly, if you don't like doing something don't put it on stage R: The danger- the danger in that, is 'cause someone will look at it and go "Oh you're the person who does that" and then hire you to do it, one hundred and fifty to two hundred times a year for multiple years as punishment for you hating it. L: Yeah R: Karmicly speaking, that's where you're going. L: So, don't do something you don't like doing. But, that said, I'm going to answer this question with my least favorite of the things I am willing to do. R: So this is- this is the- the bad gig. L: This is the bad gig. R: Oh, I want to hear your bad gig. 'Cause I don't actually know. L: So, there is a thing that occasionally happens. For the most part what we do is either we do a stage show where we gather everybody's attention and it's all on us and we do a set of- you know, we do a performance or we do audience interactive stuff at an event, so we'll be out there and directly interacting with people. R: So, roving through a festival L: Roving through a festival, R: Okay L: but talking with people, interacting with people. There are events which will ask for you to to part of that, but not the actual interactive part. I- I tend to think of it as "wallpaper juggling" or "screen saver juggling" where they want you to be there and be doing something interesting but they don't want you to actually gather people's attention. They want you to be able to just catch people's attention if they feel like it. Which is not a very pleasant way to work, to be perfectly honest. R: I owe you an apology, do you know why you got so many of those gigs early on? L: Why? R: Because I'm really bad at them. L: *laughs* R: No, when you first joined- when you first joined up and you- L: yeah R: You wanted to be comfortable out in crowds and stuff? I kept putting you on those because I'm- if I go on one of those, and I have, I haven't recent history- you know not recent recent history, but I have, the problem is I'm no good at being a lava lamp. L: Yeah R: I immediately draw crowds, so yeah, it doesn't work. L: I mean- I- I can do it. I can do it. I don't love doing it but it is- it is totally possible for me to do it. I tend to do that by doing diabolo (pronounced diablo) or diabolo (with all syllables pronounced) I have a glow- I have a- a light up LED one. R: You're a literal lava lamp L: and so I will just stand there in like, a suit. So, dark muted colors, R: with a light up prop L: with something slightly flashy to- to show that I am a performer and then a light up little sphere that I will make bounce around and do interesting patterns in the air and R: Lava lamp L: Lava lamp. R: yeah well L: Don't love being a lava lamp, but I will be a lava lamp if we can't convince the person orchestrating the event that that is not the thing they actually want. R: I'll keep that in mind for future bookings, and again my apologies. So, well that was- that was a well answered question. I've turned it around. L: Ok, no, your answer the- R: Oh, I see L: You then ask the next one, that is how this works. R: Hoow is that a something as simple as a stack of index cards and I can blow this? L: I don't know. R: Alright, Oh this is a good- L: "Two clowns-" R: Two clowns. This is a good one. I like this one. L: Okay R: "Where do clown names come from? L: Oh that is a good one! That is a good one. Okay, so in my experience- so with my two clown personas and seeing many young clowns come into being, for the most part, I find that their- their clown names are given to them. R: Oh yes L: Whether that is by an instructor, by another clown- R: I should apologize to a lot of my students L: Whether that is that they find themselves using the nickname that everyone has attached to them for an extended period of time, somehow it will be something that they did not so much choose as got assigned and that tends to be with like, the clown is totally into it they're like "Yes this is this what I'm called. Good. We're going with it" the performer may or may not be. I know R: I'm watching you build up to the story because I happen to know it. Yeah, no kidding, as I gave you a- I gave you a clown name and you didn't like it but the clown did. L: Yes I did, R: Yeah L: I mean yes, you did. It was- you made a joke- R: I one day, I walked up to that clown and said "Me Tarzan, you Jane." and then that clown went "Okay" and that was it. We were stuck with it. We're- we're still stuck with it. L: Yes, so that clown's named Jane and I didn't love it. I did- I did like the fact that it- it is a family name, so it was kind of cool R: Aww L: -that that ended up being the case. Which is basically how I justified it to myself, that it was okay. R: All I was doing was implying that you a smaller primate than I was L: *Affirmative Noise* and- and, and Jane was cool with that. So that- that's how, that's how Jane got- Jane got her name. R: Chadwick? What about Chadwick? L: Chadwick? Okay so, my mother sent me a scan of a piece of paper from her youth like she was- I don't know if it was middle school or high school but when she was young where she had written out a whole bunch of names, like first name middle name combinations for her potential offspring and she'd written out a whole bunch of- of girl names and a whole bunch of boy names and she had had her mom and her sisters and I don't have it was cousins or couple of friends but a few different people like rate these names, and the lowest rated, by friends and family, boy name was Chadwick Valentine. R: What I love about that is it's- one it's an incredibly cool name and two it's the loser name. In a list of names it got voted the loser and a clown went "That's me." L: A hundred present, there was just a little voice in the back of my head that went "*gasp* That's me!" R: And you're stuck with it. L: I was stuck with it, and so Chadwick was named. R: It's- it's interesting to me also because some people have a bunch of diff- you know everything they do is a different clown persona, different character. Some people, like I mentioned the barbie thing earlier, some have one that has a job as a name and- and then it plays characters. L: Yes. R: I've seen all of these things. L: Yes R: Yeah L: So, I will turn it around after after sharing where both of my clowns got their names. "Where do clown names come from?" R: Well first of all, I joked that I had to apologize to a lot of people. I have a weird knack. My whole life, nicknames slid off of me L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I think this is because my- my full name didn't stick to me and a nickname was assigned to me before- by the time I left the hospital as an infant, I was Russ and not the full version of that name. L: Yes R: So there was that and I think this is just like been the sort of weird nickname armour nicknames- just if someone gives me a nickname it doesn't last. Correspondingly the other side of this weird coin, is that I have an unusual ability, have had- years before this circus stuff, I mean when I was even younger, if I gave someone a nickname? And I wish I'd figured it out sooner because it could have been a super useful power. It stuck. I would like, we had groups of people and they all had nicknames and I'd given them to them and then I got into being a clown and I realized I had named half the clowns I'd known. L: Oh yeah. R: And some of that was before I was teaching, I would just say something for whatever reason it would stick and I'm not suggesting I'm smart, I'm suggesting I have a destructive ability to assign- L: *laughs* R: to assign categorical nomenclature. I don- I don't know, but I had this and so I was very aware of it and I became very sensitive to it and so I've got that and as a teacher you know I've- I've had students and you know, you go "This is what I see" and then somehow some version of that invariably comes to them- come- becomes the name. The one I always think of is we have a clown with us, Robert. L: Yes. R: and Robert has a clown called Waso and we called him- he has funny colored hair, he always has it dyed a different color. L: Yes R: and I said "You're like a bird" and we would all be "Hey birdbrain! Come here!" we'd always like- "You're like a bird. Lovely plumage" we would say, and invariably one day the clown told us that his name was Waso because we'd all been studying toki pona together L: and that's toki pona for 'bird' R: Exactly and so that became a whole thing, where some of the clowns picked up toki pona names and some of them pick up nicknames and character names and Marie's clown is called Foley 'cause she makes weird noises and music, you know, everybody's got a thing. L: Yeah R: I have- I have a great story about how I got one of my names, because I think it explains vividly what this feels like. L: Okay R: Okay so at one point, I'm- I got to go to the- they were selling off everything in the production studio of "Barney the Dinosaur" they had shut down production and they were liquidating everything but the character costumes. L: oh wow. R: And I am pretty sure people know what "Barney the Dinosaur" is but if not I'll- I'll, I'll find an article and link it. So, beloved children show, not one I grew up with but L: One I grew up with R: Okay but so, I'm there I'm grabbing stuff left and right every hat box- see all those hat boxes up there? We're actually in the closet L: Yeah there's a ton of hat boxes up there. R: Every one of those, came from the produ- not the hats in them necessarily but the boxes themselves were in the production studio. L: Oh wow R: Yeah, you know, this pair of pants and that and the other thing and so what happened was, I was- I went into a room full of hats and I grabbed anything that looked like it might be interesting "Oh that might be a neat character" and one of the things was this hood with floppy ears and a foam rhino horn and I was like "Oh, that could be funny" and I stuffed it in- not- it meant nothing. L: Yeah R: I grabbed three other things after that that were more important and more "oooh exciting" this had no- I'm gonna say value, even though I'm very attached to it now. L: Yeah. R: But at this point, it- it seemed important that it was meaningless. Hold on a that idea as we go through this. So anyway I got all this stuff and we put it away and I wasn't really thinking about it and a couple of weeks later I got a call and there was a- a group doing a summer camp for I think it was scouting or something it was a summer camp. Anyway, they said "We've got a big thing, we want to reward the kids, we got the thing we're- we're doing a safari theme would you come out, you know and do something, just wander around and hang out and get pictures" and we said "Absolutely we'd be happy to do that". So, we have a- we have a stilt-walking tree, so the tree went out, the clown I was working with at the time, Moxie, Moxie had a bow and giant flower which was hilarious because you could pull it and when you let go the flower went six inches and fell into the ground. L: *Snorts* R: So it was- it was instantly funny and I was like "I dunno what to do for this and I grabbed- I grab the rhino horn and just whatever costume pieces that seemed like that might work and I threw something together and threw on a clown nose and said "Perfect" and I got dressed up and we went out there and we were told go- when we got there, "Oh, yeah, yeah, go up over this hill and the- the kids are there doing their thing and you could just join them." I said "Great" and for whatever reason Moxie went this way, Tree went that way, left and right, I said "Well, I'll just go through the middle" and we'll figure, we'll all just kind of show up in different places, was the idea. So I'm going up and I go up this hill and I put my hand on a tree and I left my body, because remember, we were told us "Just go wander around with the kids" When we got there, there were five hundred kids, sitting on chairs in a circle. L: Oh R: Multi ring circus, they were expecting a show and we didn't have one because we weren't told we were supposed to have one and I'm sitting there in this costume going "At any second they're going to notice I'm here, and I'm dead. They're going to kill me" and I just- I just go numb and I realize, we have to- we can't not show up. There's clearly literally people just over there are counting on us L: Yeah R: So I start walking L: *Laughs* R: And I kind of question my feet, "what were my feet thinking?" but I walk and- and I don't know what to do at this point so I'm just sort of slack I'm- I'm, just there's nothing going on and I'm walking and I am afraid. I'm very afraid because I don't have a plan. This is not like 'Ha-ha I don't have a plan" this is "Oh no I don't know what to do" L: Yeah R: I- I got it in my head that all I had to do was walk across the stage and I think somewhere subconsciously, my lizard brain was thinking "and if you just keep going you can make a run for it" L: *Laughs* R: -but I get going, I'm going and I'm dragging my feet and I'm just-and I'm just sort of slumping my way to the middle of this theat- this open air amphitheatre that's been created, hoping anything happens. I was like, I can feel them noticing- I kind of hard to miss all of this and I take one step and I- and my foot kind of arrives at center stage and I hear from behind me the two hundred and fifty of the people who have- who are now behind me scream "Hey Rhino" and in a minute it was like something flipped on inside me and I swear it must have been born out of desperation and human stupidity coming together are making this beautiful baby and I spun around and said (in a silly voice) "That's me!" And I started walking and I did something, and it was okay, and there was Rhino, and Rhino was doing the thing (return to normal voice) and I got through it. And I have to calm that down. L: Hi Rhino. R: I was like (in Rhino's voice) Hi everybody! (return to normal voice) but I- I did the show, L: Yeah. R: and I don't- I won't say anything we did was good, I don't say anything that happened, I don't know, because it was kind of a blur. I turn around and imprinted like a duckling on what these kids it said. (In Rhino's voice) "Rhino is a rhino." (returns to normal voice) good enough. That was all I needed L: Yeah. R: and at the end of it there are three performers who have done a thing and all of these kids stand up and I got- I'm no longer performing and my brain goes "Oh no, they're gonna come for me" and they all reach- and they're sitting on buckets and they rip the lids off, and they're paint buckets that they rip the lids off of and it makes this *makes horrible ripping sound* horrible sound and I think (in Rhino's voice) "They're going to put my heard in a bucket. I'm going to die here" (returns to normal voice) and of course some of the kids went to one performer some of the kids went to the other and a bunch of them picked up one of their hands in a fist over their head and have the lids in their hands and ran at me and I literally will never forget I thought the words "And to this is how I die" as the first kid got to be and I'm just stilling the reflex not to run or fight. Right? L: Yeah R: because at this point it's like a zombie horde L: *laughs* R: and I'm thinking "It's a very short zombie horde, it's still going to eat me and they're going to put my head in one of those buckets" One of them swings their hand forward and I think "Oh this is it" and I look and it's a sharpie. They're holding the lid and they want their autograph, they were autographs from all the clowns, all the performers, on the lids of these buckets and I wrote 'Rhino' five hundred times and I doubt I spelled it the same way twice. L: That's impressive, 'rhino' is not long word. R: It's not a long word. (in Rhino's voice) "Here you go, here you go, here you go" (returns to normal voice) so it was I think, because you are fully present, you're very energized, you're put in a tiny bit of, in this case, a big example of safe crisis L: Yeah R: and then you're shown something that lines up to who you are, in that moment, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the sort of clumsy bull in a china shop that people like. Okay that character, that character, who I don't play very often these days, comes- comes to life and- and has their moment and I think that is the big version of how these characters get their names because they need something to make- they- they're looking for validation. They're looking for something that makes them feel as real as they feel to themselves, otherwise they kind of shut down and go to sleep but also if you start, as the performer, start making decisions- I used to think that it was so pretentious to hear someone talk "well, my clown does this and my clown does that" and I used to think it sounded pretentious and real- really it is a bit of doublethink to keep some separation between you and a mental state that is very chaotic L: Yes R: and I think that giving that a name so you can talk about it is incredibly useful. I'm pretty good at object permanence if I put my glasses here, they're still here when I go looking for them again. L: Yes R: Rhino, not so much. So I wouldn't want to confuse those things so we say "Okay Rhino's got that and I've got this" and it creates some- some very healthy separation. I think that's very valid. L: Yeah R: So I think a lot of the clown names come from that sort of thinking and then somebody, when you're a teacher you're- you're not great or knowledgeable or wise, what you are is you're objective, cause it's not your adventure, it's somebody else's adventure. L: Yeah R: and so you've stepped back and you go "Oh, I see you're doing this a lot maybe this is something." and if they respond then it is, and if not, well, that was a thing you saw and it's interesting because I have also seen people try to- try to name something and it not happen. It just no. L: yeah R: It just- they just- and it's not a refusal, it's just not interesting. I don't think clowns will go "no, no, no" what happens in the moment that's just not the most interesting thing happening L: Yeah they'll just focus on something else R: yeah L: So- so, you talked about Rhino, R: Yeah L: Which is a great story R: It is a great story L: but what about your clown? R: Do I talk about that? Yeah, I can talk about that. It's funny because I think one side of this is, this sort of state is where- It's where your madness lives and I say madness with great respect. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I don't say this like I'm mocking it. I- I say it as it's a powerful force and I- I had found this persona, I'd gotten kind of torn down by a few teachers and put back together by a few better teachers and I was back, and I was working, and it was good, and I knew it was something different and it didn't have a name for a very long time and I was looking for- somewhere I was looking for this- this thing's name so I could talk about and I would- I would just avoid talking about. I would just kind of shy away from the topic. L: Or you'd say my clown. R: My clown, yeah L: without- without further R: without further pretension, and I still do that, but the clown, it kind of aligned to something that I had been feeling, which is the fact that I, being the creative director of a theater company and I was, at the time I was a very actively teaching at a residency program and I was helping lot of people sort of emerge this clown in themselves, and I was producing events, and I was doing this, and I was doing that, and, and, and one of those things that true about me is that I- my favorite sentence, when I say it earnestly is "I'm happy to help" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's not a- none of these things are a complaint. I love doing all these things, but you have to wear lot of hats. L: yeah R: and I was having kind of a meltdown about this very fact and we had been workshopping a lot and I was kind of in- I was kinda half in the zone of the clown L: yeah R: and the clown kinda- kinda stepped forward on this and I remember screaming "I'm willing to be the expert of a topic, I'm willing to be the leader, I'm willing to be-" and all of these specific phrases are memorable because we were, again, we were studying toki pona at the time and so like, 'jan sona' is the teacher, it's the knowledge person and 'jan lawa' is the- the, the governor person, the leader person, the in charge person, the head person. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So I was willing to be all of these different things and I said "As long as I get to be a person, I'm fine with that. As long as I get actually be" L: yeah R: and I stepped up and I said- and I said "I want to be called that, I want to be called" and it's in- in toki-pona the word for person is 'jan' and it's just funny to me because simultaneously it- it is both an important idea and very silly because how you talk about people in toki pona is you would say, you'd either say they're the 'jan sona' they're the knowledge person, or you would say their name but you would start it with- L: You'd start it with 'jan' yeah, we were, we've already mentioned waso, R: yeah, so jan waso L: is jan waso because that's how toki pona does it. It's- it's person and then adjective for person, and so your name is an adjective describing a person and that's how- R: Right L: that's how it's done R: and you can- you can do- you can actually transliterate your name into that and mine comes out a weird grunt it's like 'uwe'. L: Yeah R: So it's not a- it's not a pronounceable particularly useful word. L: and thing that I remember when I- when I look back at this period of time is, we had just translated Jane's name as 'jan sane' and Jane very quickly like, she accepted the name 'Jane' but she really accepted the name 'jan sane' and actually introduced herself as "jan sane, which in English you would say Jane" and I don't remember whether it was actually Jane or whether it was me who referred to you as 'jan uwe' and it was like your clown didn't understand how, despite the fact that toki pona was like, arguably his first language, it was like he didn't understand how that structure worked and so that was first name - last name R: it just seems so formal L: and- and, and you don't need that formality, we're all friends here so it's just 'jan' R: and so, on the topic of these things sticking or not sticking, one of the one of the closing thoughts on this. I like, as I mentioned earlier that I don't- I don't do the wallpaper role very well because I stick out too much, because I am an egomaniac. L: *laughs* R: One of the things that happened was, Marie had a stilt-walking event and we didn't have a safety person that day and I said "I'' go be your safety person. I'm perfectly happy and perfectly, you know, perfectly capable of doing that." So I went out as the safety person, I'm wearing the- I put on the full roustabout uniform, I had the little bowler hat on, had the little vest on and I got all dressed up. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'm standing there trying to be as invisible as I can and somebody, and I remember they were an older person, walked up and said "What's your name?" to the tree and the tree's like "My name is Tree" and they said "and what's- what's your name?" and they turn to me and I was like "well that's- you know, I'm supposed to just be the help" and I- and they said "What's your name?" and I remembered, very jokingly, that we had- had a run- I'm talking about nicknames- all of the people I had nicknamed, the reason I had nicknamed them, was we had multiple roustabouts that all had the first name "John". L: So after like the first one, we decided we couldn't have any more Johns. R: They all had nicknames after that. L: Yeah R: So I said jokingly "Well, the person who stands here is usually called John" Thinking I was being clever, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And the person, who clearly was a little hard of hearing, said "Jan, that's an interesting name" and went on about their business as I turned grey trying to process what just happened, and it was this weird sort of validation moment of "Oh I guess that is good. Neat." Yeah, so you find these sorts of things and you decide- you can either go "they're weird coincidences, that's sort of charming" or you can say "they're synchronoustic and meaningful" and I think there's a value and accepting both possibilities L: Yes. R: and I do- I think I spend- I have spent a lot of time chasing hats. Quite- quite literally in some cases, I have found a hats on the street and walked around with them for very long time trying to find their owner, till I realized I had walked multiple miles while holding the hat I had found in the street and that meant it was mine, but it took me another year to figure that out. L: Well there you are. R: but that is a true story and I think a lot of these things work very similarly to that idea that we're- we're- we're allowing- it's not that we're assigning meaning we're allowing meaning. L: Yeah R: and that's where I think, "where do the names come from?" they are- they are the words that mean that persona state and we're allowing that meaning to stick and they're allowing it as well and the danger I think though the- the sort of back of my head fear, now unpacking it, is that the reason why you don't wanna tell everybody that name is you're afraid someone will summon it. And the truth is no one can do that, they can- they could say that to your face and all they could do is feel foolish. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but you're- there's this fear, "Ooh, they could get power over that thing", you know, is it- L: Oh yeah, that's scary R: And, you know- you don't want that. And I think- I think there's that I also think that interestingly, talking about many hats and- and things, that persona, for me, is very good at playing other characters. L: Oh definitely R: Is particularly- that's one of his particular skills, is he can- he can pick up a character and play it, and then drop it again. Where I am slow to do that L: Yeah by comparison, R: by comparison, you know it's not that I don't have the skills, I think there's- it gets- that state of mind gets me out of the way so I can go do other things. So there's this weird sort of L: Layers R: Layers of- of stuff going on. Yeah, I'm sure there's a better term than that but I don't have it, so there is your answer. L: All right R: I think we answered this one. L: I think the question got answered. Which means- R: Slam Dunk L: -it's time for the next question R: Oh okay. Yes, next question please. L: Next question. "What are the best noises, grunts, and complaints for exercises?" R: I feel called out by a friend. Both: *laugh* R: There are- there are lots of people who come and visit us at our- or video chats "Circus in Place" is what we call it, and there we're- we are- we're not just- we're not performing. We are legitimately training new difficult and in some cases dangerous skills L: Yes R: and correspondingly that means we're doing exercise and- and therefore we are occasionally making some very authentic noises relating to the challenging your body to do impossible things. I noticed, a few years before we were doing that, a pattern in my noises L: Yes R: And it all- it all is predicated on an awareness of one true fact about my personality. I am a coward. I am absolutely, without question, afraid. It's gonna be my def- fight or flight? I'm going to freak out. That's- fight, flight, freak out. That's me. I'm not saying which on I'll actually do or what I'm actually going to do because of that knowledge, but I know it's deep in my psyche that I am afraid. Which means, when I do something, I think, the first time I do it and actually do it- not hold back and avoid doing and like I am, because I'm a coward, but I actually do it- something deep inside me screams "We're gonna die." I am convinced in that moment I'm gonna die and- and I have to be- and I was gonna just say them and- and- and- and- and- L: Oh but we bleep. R: We bleep and you'll never know what it is. So I have to- I have to like, talk about what it is but it's all- I noticed was always though, that visceral one was always the f-bomb. Always. "Oh, f-bomb" "f-bomb this" "f-bomb, I'm going to f-bombing die" every single f-bombing time. L: Yup. R: As I became braver with a skill and more confident in my ability to challenge it, it goes from "I'm going to die" to "I might die" and that comes out "s-bomb" "crap" L: "Merde" R: "Merde", "Feko", "ko jaki", yeah I go- every time. Every time and if people speak other languages and are easily offended we just got them couple of times. I feel good about that. L: Ta-da! R: Right but- but- always that. L: We'll see how much of it escapes our own censor. R: Right L: *laughs* R: and then, the last one, on the- on the far side of that. If I get past that, it's just "augh" which is "I think I might end up in a situation where I'm gonna die" Which is just a grunt. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's just *series of low grunt/yelling noises* instead of all of those other- it's not even verbal. What comes after that is deep breathing, and when I hit that point, I'm ready to put something on stage. L: Yeah, because it's not- not appropriate to put something on a stage in front of children- R: where you're gonna scream- L: We're gonna drop- drop f-bombs, R: Where you drop an f-bomb and scream "I'm gonna die" L: Yeah R: Yeah that's not okay L: No R: So yeah, that's- that's my progression in training and in exercising. That and a lot of complaining because a real fun fact, despite the fact that we do some very advanced physical things, I don't think of myself as athletic or a workout person. I'm a couch person, I'm currently under a blanket and sitting on a pillow and very happy about it. That's who I am as a person and I think that idea is- is in me, so there's a lotta complaining. Conditioning comes with complaining, stretching comes with complaining, so those L: *Affirmative Noise* R: are the sounds that I'm- I think are the best and- to let them out and when you can't, when you can't, tension builds up. But when you- when you have- I'm thinking about something in particular. When we were at the residency and we weren't allowed to go "f-bomb, s-bomb, grunt" you weren't allowed to do any of those things, I would announce that I was about to release a string of four letter words. L: and then you would R: but they'd be words like "foot", "cars", "this", "toot". Just any four letter word I could think of that wasn't vulgar while doing something hard. L: Oh, and then we started learning toki pona, which is full of four letter words. R: "tawa", "kala", "Why are you screaming fish?", "fish!". Yeah, that was fine. So yeah, I think that- all of my answers in one would be the- the, the string from f-bomb to grunt and then the string of intentional four letter words. That's what I recommend. Those are my recommendations, how about you? L: Nice R: How 'bout you? What are your favorite sounds and words to say during exercise? L: Let's see, well, so it's interesting. Where, at the fear level and intensity level where you release an f-bomb, I grew up in an environment where I was not allowed to swear at all. R: You have cured yourself L: I have, but what I will find is that like, for example when I injured my wrists, I didn't say anything. R: No you didn't make a sound. L: I don't make a sound. I am completely quiet as I analyze what has occurred and feel all of the feelings and then I'm very likely to say "ow". This has happened on multiple occasions where I've hurt myself in the past and honestly I think it really sets me up to be prepared for any accidental injury on a stage because it's funny. R: The- the problem is that everyone around you who knows you, when they- L: Will know that it's bad, R: if you calmly say "ow", we all freak out L: yes, but- but an audience wouldn't and- until now. Now that- R: Now they know L: Now everyone knows R: What about when it goes good? L: but, when it goes good? There's a lot of I do- I do the fist pump and just go "yesss" R: let the air out "yesss" L: Which is very very fun R: oh and then there's this thing L: Oh yeah we do a thing where like both pointing at each other R: and it goes - Both: *series of short choppy noises back and forth* R: You! L: You! R: You! Yessss! L: Which roughly translates to "Did you feel that? I felt that. I felt that, did you feel that? That was really good!" R: "You did that!" L: "You did that! I did that! You did that! We did that! R: "Yessss" L: "Yess" R: good luck, good luck transcribing that by the way L: oh goodness R: *Laughs* L: But yeah, So we'll do that. I also think, you know, I laugh whenever we've got to the point where- we have a lot of things that were doing where you're at that grunt stage R: *grunts* L: and one of the things that I think is important, like I don't do very much of it, but there is a history of releasing a sound with your breathing in order to maximize your- effort put into a thing. You see this in a lot of martial arts, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: you see this in heavy weight lifting, you see this in- a- it- just a lot of things, there are a lot of things were there is some sort of yell or expulsion of air and it's part of how you remember to breathe R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and it's part of how you concentrate your force into one- one movement and I know that there, like, there are gyms that ban that practice. R: I can't work out there. Wherever that is, I can't go L: and I respect that- I respect that those sorts of things can be very intimidating for people and so I recognize that a space is needed where that is not being done but if you are the type of person who gains something from making a sound when you're doing the hard thing, make that sound, do the hard thing. There is- I'm pretty sure there's actual research backing up the fact that you will actually do better by releasing that noise so- R: plus if you could train yourself to making a weird noise? L: Even better. R: So much more fun to go "whoopie whoopie whoopie whoopie whoopie whoopie" while doing something hard. L: So- so that- I will definitely say, make the noise. R: yeah L: Go ahead and make the noise R: Make the noise L: Unless, of course, you are currently working out at a place the banns it. Do respect the rules of the space you're in. But yeah, I-, complaints was one of the things on here, you mentioned there's a fair amount of complaining when it comes to stretching and doing some of the- the, conditioning stuff. I end up doing a lot of complaints much before that R: You do. L: I've noticed there- there is a tendency of, when adrenaline is running high and we've just safely gotten me to the ground after a trick but something has gone moderately wrong, I tend to be the one throwing complaints your direction. R: You know L: It's- sometimes it's completely valid, sometimes it's less valid. R: I will say- I will say this, we picked up a note early on which was "never play the blame game". So when you're doing something where you have two performers that are interacting, one of the things that happens is you can only feel- I can- I can feel what you're putting in my hand but I have no idea what necessarily what that means is going on above it. So I can say "You're not bending your hand" but the reality is you are bending your shoulder when you're not supposed to be or something like that. And I can either come after you with a string of blame or I can say "Hey, I need more of this. This is what I need" and get rid of the blame and- and realize that it's a puzzle the two people trying to solve and I think- I will give you credit, while you do complain constantly, you do- you do reframe it in a productive way which has kept me from murdering you. L: Yes, R: during the time we've been working together L: We- we worked really hard to start building that as our way of communicating R: That's 'cause we started feeling it. We started feeling that there- there's an adrenalin management that you have to do, but even beyond that you start feeling that "oh the trick went wrong, it's tense, maybe it's because you're a terrible person" and you start going to blame because you don't want to blame yourself. Especially if you don't think it's you. L: Yeah. R: and so got this set of reflexes, and the only thing to do is to unpack them and go "Okay, something screwed up." L: "Something screwed up. R: *laughs* L: This is the thing I felt, this is the thing I think I need" and I have to rely on my partner to figure out whether or not there was something they need to change because I can't see it, I can't feel it. All I can feel is what I can feel and all you can feel is what you can feel and so I also have to reflect and see if or something I can change R: *Affirmative Noise* L: at the same time. I also am more likely to verbalize the fact that I have a shoulder that's complaining or that- that some muscle group is not participating the way I would like it to R: you do- you do whinge. L: And some of that is totally whingeing and totally just complaining because ow. R: You whinge. L: but some of that is also communicating because it's important for you to know where the likely fail points are R: sure L: because if I'm having a shoulder that's not behaving and we go into a trick R: that is a behaved shoulder L: That needs a behaving shoulder and something goes wrong, like we're always looking to make sure that we know what's going wrong but when you know that shoulder's bad, you're not going to put me on that shoulder to take me down. R: One hopes. L: You're gonna put me on the other shoulder, hopefully. So we do a lot of- a lot of over communicating. R: Right, which as as as a rational person who does not have all of the adrenaline from their primal brain going through my forebrain at the time I take very well and think about deeply. No I don't, I try really hard not to just respond by going "raar" L: Which is why- which is why we started like, chatting about a whinge per trick count R: Yeah, you do good, L: to do- to calm it down R: You do good L: So yeah this- R: You've answered the question and you've even thrown yourself under the bu- I'm gonna now dust you off and ask you to come out from under the bus L: Okay R: and give you- I'll give you another question because yeah, you- you just threw yourself under it. L: Okay R: So maybe this one will go better for you. L: I hope so R: Why? Do you feel the last one went badly? L: No R: You answered honestly L: No, it was good, it was good. R: Are you alright? L: I'm- I'm fine. R: Are you sure? L: Yes R: Okay, you're positive? L: Positive R: Are you sure you're positive? L: And positive I'm sure R: Then moving on "How is your alternate universe evil twin doing?" Who writes this stuff and how do we say thank you to them more often? L: Thank you! R: Oh yeah, thank you that was a great question. L: I don't know who- I don't know who put- put this in, because I've now- I've now processed enough of these, like, I jokingly said in the first season that I knew who had- who had sent in all the questions R: You were lying L: No I did know, R: Oh, did you? L: I did know, at that point in time, I could remember who- who had said each one R: No L: And I have now processed so many questions that I have no idea who said anything. R: Well L: but thank you to whomever sent this one, 'cause this one's great. R: This is a good one. "How is your alternate universe evil twin doing? L: That's a very good question. I should hope they're doing quite well. Um, I'm trying to imagine who my alternate universe evil twin would be. *pause* oh no. R: What? L: They're probably like, exceptionally corporate. R: Oh that makes sense. That's upsetting. L: The word that is coming to mind is 'girl-boss' R: Oh L: And it just makes me sad. R: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. L: It makes me sad. R: Oh that's rough, I'm sorry. L: Oh but I bet they're doing great. That that human being is probably doing wonderfully. R: Okay L: So yeah, they're doing great. R: They're doing great, that's- that's all you got. Okay. how- L: That's what I've got. R: How're they're doing. L: I bet they're doing just fine. How is your alternate universe evil twin doing? R: I find it funny that the whole time I'm with you and feeling all the things you're feeling it never occurs to me during that time that I'm going to have to answer that question in a second so I don't start thinking. So now I'm thinking about it. L: *laughs* R: I- you know, So I have to assume they're, in some ways they're similar, I mean they probably have the reverse of my haircut, so they're probably bald with the goatee also mirror-mirror universe stuff. Yeah, evil universe- L: But, you've been that person. R: I know, that's even better. Which is why I feel so- such a- such a tight kinship to my my alternate universe evil twin. You know, if I'm honest about myself, and this podcast proves it, I am a very boring person that has a very interesting job and I love to talk about it. So my guess is that my alternate universe evil twin loves to talk about their job but it's really boring L: Like, like what? R: Like an accountant. I mean, I'm sure somebody finds that fascinating but I'm bad at math and I think that the banging on about, I don't know, actuarial tables, something, that sounds terrible. L: Okay, fair. R: and I just had the worst thought. L: What? R: Well, you know, I'm- I'm in charge of this nonsense. L: Yes. R: They probably just have a job. They might be- L: Oh no. R: They might be your alternate universe's evil twin's accountant, in your evil company L: Oh wow R: I mean at least we're together. L: Yeah, no, that- that's good. R: That part's nice. L: I'm glad- I'm glad that our alternate universe evil twins spend time together, R: I suppose L: In some way R: I suppose that's a comfort, that's the comfort I'm going to take. L: Yeah, yeah. R: It probably is a lot like this *laughing* Now that I think about it. L: Do- do you think that they- that they started a podcast? R: What like, "Two Corporate People in an Office"? L: Yes R: Maybe, but I gotta say this, they don't have one thing that we've got. L: What do they not have that we've got? R: Well, a theme song L: True R: That is true. It is true and I'm about to have it play into the room, but before I go, and before I do that I want to thank you for answering questions L: Oh thank you. R: I want to thank- oh you're welcome, I want to thank you for listening along at home or wherever you are in the world. If you're listening to us and you think we're funny to the point of distraction, please make sure you're safe and if you- you think we're really boring try putting this on before go to bed, might help you sleep. L: Yes R: Yeah, and L: If you have any questions, R: Good point L: do let us know. R: send 'em in. We're gonna- we're gonna release a few of these episodes and then we're gonna- we're gonna see if anybody's got any follow up questions and L: Yes R: then we'll go from there, and in the meantime, thank you for hanging out with while we do this thing called L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: very nice. And now, as promised, the thing our alternate universe evil twins don't have, a theme song.