----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 12 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-12-19 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Russ: I have arrived Liam: Well done R: Thank you. It's nice to see you and it's nice to see you, all of my friends on the internet, right here L: I was trying to offer you some of this blanket and just- R: I'm trying to do an introduc- you're knockin' blankets around and things. L: Yes. R: I was gonna do a really nice introduction. L: and you can do a really nice introduction, I just thought you might want to do it with warm legs. R: Thank you, my legs are much warmer. It is frigidly cold in here. Okay, I'm gonna do a proper introduction, you just give me a second okay? L: All right. R: Alright, don't interrupt. L: Of course not. R: I'm gonna go now L: good, do. R: Okay, thank you. L: Whenever you're ready R: Friends on the internet, it is so- you see know I'm worried you're going to interrupt me. L: I didn't say anything. I was just sitting here, looking at the microphone, thinking about our friends. R: Well what were you thinking about them? Be careful, I'll tell them. L: If I were to say, they would already know, and you wouldn't need to tell them. R: You save me a step that way. Speaking of saving steps, we started our rehearsal upstairs. Which means I did not have to walk up the stairs, I didn't even have to go to the landing where the have rack is. Instead I shambled across the bedroom where the bookshelf full of clown books is- See? Adding color to the universe with every episode- to go through this tiny door to sit down here with you, to introduce our podcast L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: You're a little tiny, tiny bit late. Just a tiny bit, you want to do it again? Are you- you happy? L: It was brilliant. R: It was a dramatic- L: It was perfect. R: dramatic pause L: Yes. R: Dramatic- Okay, I'll give you dramatic pause. Friends we're here, it's very, very cold, it's right before the holidays and we have questions. L: Yes R: We do L: I have a nice little stack of questions here. R: Well, the questi- L: Would you like to start them? R: Yes, I was about to say, "The questions please?" I'm about ready- I haven't said it yet! Don't just stick cards at me like it's- are gonna- The questions- L: I apologize, I thought you were asking for the questions. R: You're interrupting. L: Well I apologize for interrupting. R: Thank you it means a lot. L: You're welcome *dramatic pause* L: Dramatic pause R: *laughs* The cards please. Thank you. I have just realized- L: You're welcome. R: I'm going to try talkin' now. L: Sounds brilliant. R: You got a headache? L: A headache? No. R: I hold my hand up menacingly, do you have a headache? L: No, nor to I want one, thank you. R: Ah, there it is, there it is. It's an old radio joke. Speaking of radio, I want to take a second since we've stopped. L: Had we begun? R: What's the difference? L: Good question. R: You know today, I'm having a weird day because normally I get ready for this like it's a show. L: Yes R: I warm up a little L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I think about it. Today? Nothing. We've been talking about being behind the scenes, I didn't even shave today. I'm normally shaved to be ready to work L: Yes R: and I'm feeling very- it's very casual today. I did remember my hat L: Yeah, I was about to day, you did- you do have your hat on. R: So hat, funny socks, no shave, it's a it's an irregular moment so I a- L: but you'll be warmer R: That's true, I apologize if I'm not fully regular during the course of this broadcast. *Awkward Pause* That was an awkward choice, Alright L: *laughs* Dramatic Pause R: Dramatic Pause. Alright. Are you ready for the first one. L: Oh, I'm going to have to clarify that we are in fact saying "Dramatic Pause" as opposed to highlighting that there is a dramatic pause. R: You just heard the sound of the internal screaming of a transcriptionist, which is you. L: Yes. R: I have no such problems he said charmingly. *Pause* Okay. L: Well, the thing is I don't tend to add too many descriptors to how we speak so- R: You're- you're right. I feel sorry for people who read the transcriptions of when we do something like go *long unintelligible stream of noises* L: I can't wait to see what the automated software thinks you said there. R: You're welcome. Now then, that we've handled all the obvious, the very- L: Yes R: important things, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the first question of this episode L: Okay. R: I'm going to read it to you, you're gonna answer it. That's the format of the show. L: That is the format of the show. R: The format we established so long ago and yet haven't gotten right once. "Recommendations for hypo-allergenic theater makeup" L: I would love some. R: No, that was the question. Oh wait a minute I missed a part, oh. "Do you have L: Oh no R: recommendations" L: It doesn't say- it doesn't say "Do you have" but I do assume that that was their intent. R: It- it says it here in the part where- L: It doesn't say- R: I made it more- L: In the part where you made it up? R: Yeah, the in the part, the part outside the paper where I made it up so it sounded nice. I read what was on the card. You said "Just go in there, sit down, read the card. It'll be great" I read the card and you're already making fun of me by saying I made stuff up. I'm a very honest person I'll have you know. L: That's true. R: I didn't come here to get into an argument with you. It just sort of happened. Weren't you going to answer a question about hypo-allergenic theater make up? L: I was. R: For clowns, for clowns L: You know, it's hard to find an answer for that because it's- it's always difficult with skin stuff to know what you respond to, what you don't respond to. Having a problem with your glasses there? R: No. No I'm fine, please continue, I wouldn't wanna interrupt. L: but so- the- I use Ben Nye brand. R: This not a product placement. L: This is not a product placement. We're not- we're not sponsored but I use Ben Nye grease paint and I- and it works really well for me, but I would say for anybody who has skin allergies, has reactions to various make up products, most costume shops, like theater costume shops R: Yeah L: Not your R: Halloween store L: your Halloween store, R: yeah, not that. L: Most theater costume shops, the places you can go to to get rentals for theater shows, tend to have a makeup counter, that makeup counter does tend to attract the person who knows a lot about the theatrical make up to it and they can typically help you out. Typically they can help you do a patch test with anything that you're considering before you actually have to invest in purchasing an amount of it. R: By "patch test" you mean put some on L: Yeah, put some on and- and try it on your skin. R: Yeah, yeah I didn't know the term but I was gonna get around saying that so I'm glad you covered it. L: Yeah, you- you wanna you want to test it, see how your body reacts and- and go with it from there. Unfortunately, there's not much else you can do on that point, I don't think. How about you? Do you have any recommendations for hypoallergenic theater make up? R: I- you know, I'll- I'll add on to what you said. You have to try what works for you and it's gonna be different things. Grease paint is- it is- it is a grease base with a- with a colorant in it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and then you set it with a powder and I've seen things like Marie likes neutral set powder instead of baby powder, which has traditionally used, because it doesn't have whatever they add to baby powder to give it a scent. L: Yes R: and she doesn't like the scent and so we go and get her neutral set. So you have to L: I use neutral set as well. R: Sure. So you- you find the things that work for you over time and it's- it's- it's a funny thing because when I have when I started out and I've talked about this before, I tried make up and people responded weirdly to me. L: yes R: For whatever reason when I wore makeup and I think it's just my face is expressive and if you start painting that gets weird. So what I tell people is "Figure out- figure out what works on you and try it" and you- you know, you always hear about how clowns have an established make up design that is their face and we kind of talked about that recently L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but I think the reality is that it evolves over time. It happens over time and so the experimentation, the explore, the play L: Yes R: Is really important to figure that out. I will also say that we said "Go to a theater supply of some sort" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and find the makeup counter and talk to them" and it's important that we're saying theater make up and not cosmetics. Theater make up is made very standardized. You can read up a lot about it. Cosmetics vary. L: Yes R: and you can get into things that are not- that are not quality because there's no regulation on them as a product, and so you need to be very careful if you're going to play with make up to make sure one, do things to test "Oh I'm sensitive to this chemical, I should never use it. It makes me rash out" and also don't put garbage on your skin. Weirdly, while I don't like the feel of make up on me because it's not a familiar feeling, I can glue weird stuff to me. I can cover myself in burlap, no problem. I know other people who- who they're delicate like a peach and they can't handle that. So your skin will vary and what's happened in the theater world, I think, is over time I have seen them occasionally bring new product lines but it's actually the opposite of what people want. What people want is a consistent "I use this in my career" and if you bring something else out maybe it's good, maybe it's not and those things tend to go away. So I actually look at things that are- that are older and the- the one- the one caveat on older is I have acquired used make up and things like that over the years and we're very careful to check that stuff that hasn't been sitting older. L: Yeah, because you do want relatively fresh. R: Yeah, it is a grease base, cross contamination can be a real problem and things can grow in there that you do not, once again, want to slap on your face. So please be careful and do smart things. Yeah. That's my answer. L: Okay, so that's what we've got for you. The older- some of the older brands are really consistent and so you can count on them to keep R: yeah L: being same thing. Test stuff for yourself R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Most make up- most theatrical stores have a make-up counter and good luck! We wish we could have been more helpful. R: I think, send us photos of stuff you're working on. L: I would love to see photos of stuff people are working on. R: You know what, if someone sends me a photo of stuff they're working on I will dig in my archives and find a makeup test from the days where I was bad at makeup and I will send it in return, because I- I have atrocious make up tests L: I have seen some of these pictures. They're great. R: They're very bad, very bad, but I would share. That's how confident I am that the process takes time. So, I put that out there to people as a creative opportunity. I thank you for the very good summary and we should move along. L: All right "What experiences have you had with furries?" R: With furries? L: With furries. R: I got nothing but good things to say about furries. I gotta start this off, be clear, I am not a furry myself. L: Okay R: and I'm- I'm an- I'm an older person so you know I've heard throughout the years, early on, I heard about furries and I'm like "Okay, that's a thing you're into" but I thought it was like- like trekkies or or- or people who liked a particular book series, you know, that's just the- the what they're into and I didn't really understand it until we got a call from a furry convention and the furry convention said "Would you come and do a show for us?" and we said "Do we have to dress as dogs?" because we knew nothing. So we honestly asked "Do we have to write stuff?" And they're like "No, we want you because we like you" and that was the first good sign. L: Yes R: It kept getting better from there. Every step of the way was so good and by the time it was over we did three years of show- annual shows for them, bigger each time, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: they are responsible for some of my favorite memories on stage, were some of the best audiences and we noticed right- like right from the get go, they were the most involved, invested, audience that we'd seen in a while and I think there's a tendency in a lot of places where audiences kind of sit back and they don't- they don't get invested. These were people on the edge of their seats, really involved with some of the very stupid things we were doing. L: *Affirmative Noise* I love them, so much. R: Yeah, I have nothing- I have nothing but good things to say. So I was having a great experience and by the second or third year, I don't remember which, we were in a very big theater- they kept moving us into a bigger theater, so it must have been the last year that the we did this because it was a huge theater and I was talking to one of the techs that had built the room. These- and these were people who were professionally lighting and theater and sound techs, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I was talking one of these people backstage because we just clicked and we were working on tech and they were building this massive stage for us to do our thing on and I- I finally said "Okay, you gotta explain, because I think I get it but I don't get it. Why is this so great?" he said to me something that I've- I've really taken to heart. He said "You know, when you go to a star trek convention or you go to a comic book convention, you meet people who are all talking about the same thing. They're all talking about star trek or comic books or super heroes and if they dress up they dress up as those things and that's great.". He said "The furries are different". He said, "They are dressing up as a version of themselves and therefore are very invested in their own creativity and then as the hobby side of it, and I know there's a lot more to it than that, from the hobby side of it they are very excited about other people's creativity because they know that process and so when they saw us being heightened versions of ourselves on stage as clowns, they got very into that because they had this understanding of what it takes to make those decisions." and at that moment, my- my opinion right- got even better. It was already good and it just- it just kept growing and I- I just- I went all in on this, you know playing with these- these people and- and having, we did some workshops we- we threw in, I said "Let's do some workshops" and we threw in, we did some workshops and we ended up doing a movement workshop for costumed performers where I got to meet someone who now does- this is really funny- that now does hospital work. Like they show up in their- in their fursuit and they hang out with kids. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Who were in hospitals which I think is adorable. When I first met him he was a six and a half foot tall lion and he scared everyone including me. Remember I was new to all this. I was scared, there was a lion in the room and that's a predator with the eyes in the front and the fangs in the front and was loom- looming over me and making- and being very still and it's just very scary and we ended up sort of approaching, "How do you-" Once we- we met the performer, found out the performer- heart of gold. L: Oh, wonderful. Wonderful being. R: Right and so heart of gold human being who was trying to do good things and we said "How can we fix this?" and we started working with like, making sure he wasn't too imposing and making sure that the lion's movements weren't too sudden and- and trying to make them fluid been not to still so they didn't seem like they were stalking any one and all of these things this guy integrated into what he was doing and the next time I saw him it was like watching a living cartoon and it was del- was delightful to see that people were invested in a craft and that's one side of- of- of a fandom as much as I was in my own and we had a real connection there. Additionally I had like great late night philosophic talks. We sat with a bunch of people after one of the shows and just sat all night chatting and it was- I did feel sort of like some people felt like "Oh, I'm the ambassador to all of this because you don't know what you're doing and we should keep you from being eaten" L: Yes R: Which has sort of funny because there are like jackals and beavers and badgers running around. I don't know my a beaver made the list of things I was afraid of being eaten by but just roll with it. The point is they they said to me, they said "Look you know, we- we pick something that's inside us and then we bring it out and you know, if it's- if it's doglike it becomes a dog, of it's catlike it becomes a cat." and I said "Oh, that's really cool" and we kind of, I don't remember who's- if we said it or they said it, it got said. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: said that clowns, the theory came, were what you get if your fursona, the thing you pull out of yourself and make into a creature, was a human being and I have, for my whole life realized that- that is exactly what the work is about. It's trying really hard to be a good human being version of myself and being kind of crap at it. L: *Laughs* R: In the same way that being a giant cartoon dog is great but it's also crap for being a dog. You know, and I mean that in a really loving L: Loving, yeah. R: supportive way but you- you- you're a good dog, but you're a bad dog, you know, it's kind of that. I mean the closest I get to being a good human being is maybe I'm a well trained orangutan, and you know, maybe that's what I am but the- the truth of it is the- the phrase got this one idea, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and this what we connected over and we bonded over and ever since I've had ongoing good interactions with furries. I know some people say things about furries and I'm like, I'm not a furry, but I love them, because they are- they're so good to us and we've had so many good things and I've tried- I'm thinking- I think a few of our videos on our website are from- are from those shows L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because they were so good in the audience they were so present. That's a lot of how we pick for clown, how we pick our videos that we'll use for a portfolio. Is not just how good is the act but L: can you- can you feel the audience presence through the video. Because R: Yeah L: because you can't always. R: yeah make a- making a lotta noise if anyone's ever recording because they- that- that you know, hearing that cheering "Yay" *clapping hands* that- that- that translates through and you feel that as an audi- you get the sort of a sense of what it's like to be in the room with that performer if you're watching the video back. L: Yeah R: So there's that. Yeah, so I think- I think "What are- What have my experiences been?" They're- all good. All- all good. I don't know, maybe I have more but yeah. L: Awesome R: Awesome. I should ask you, and I know- I know that you were with me on some of this so L: Oh yeah, R: Yeah, yeah, yeah. "What experiences have you had with furries?" L: Yeah so I- I definitely was along for the ride for the same R: You teched the first couple of shows L: I think I teched the first one, I think I was performing from that point forward R: Okay L: but I'm not one hundred percent sure. R: Sure L: It's so easy to lose track of when you were at what stage in things. But yeah, like, one- I mean, I had friends, I had at least one friend in high school who was part of a wolf pack. I mean like, it's- it wasn't something new for me and I mean I'd gone to- I've gone to anime conventions R: Oh sure L: and ended up- R: yeah L: ended up coming home with- with paws and a tail, so it's not like it was completely outside of the range of things I'm familiar with. I don't per- I don't personally use the term to describe myself but definitely adjacent. R: but your experiences with furries L: but yes my experiences with furries. You're- you're actively trying to push for a particular story aren't you? R: I am not, I am not! I don't have a- oh, now I realize that you have a story. Yeah, I totally want you to tell that one. No, at the time I was just like "tell- tell a story, tell us more about the experiences" and now I remember. What? L: *laughs* you're making faces R: I'm making confused lost and oops faces, yes. That's what I do. L: That's all right R: That's how I roll L: Yeah, I did have, I don't remember which year it was. It wasn't the first year we did that particular convention but it was one of the years we had this particular convention. So we drive up for the first day, because we were teaching classes and we were going in and having to, like, get our bearings and know where we were supposed to be and if they had a backroom space for us to have- to store some of our stuff and do some of that sort of thing and I happened to be the one driving a car. So we drove in, and everybody else get out of the car to go find out what le- go check out the lay of land, find out where we were supposed to be because we were going to need to unload our gear. And so I had to sit with the car, with the gear and every else went off to go find out what was going on. R: Which to me says the you were probably in the tech/roustabout role because we just left you with everything and said sort it out and wandered off. That feels L: Well no, you didn't say "Sort it out" you said "Wait here, we'll be back" R: Oh, even worse we didn't give you anything to do. Just stuck. L: No, I just had to wait. R: Yeah, you were definitely L: Wait there. R: You were definitely the new kid at that point. L: but so I'm just sitting outside in the car on this very grey day directly in front of the door to the hotel and something that people who are not super familiar with furries may not know is that- well, while I think people commonly are fairly aware that there are people out there who dress up as dogs or who dress up as giant cats R: Dragons L: dragons, we've had some amazing dragons that we've seen R: very pretty L: but one of the things I think that fewer people are aware of is that there is up a whole contingent of hooved creatures, who are part of the furry community and as I'm sitting out there, out walks out a small herd R: that would be the grouping term L: Of deer. R: That would absolutely be the grouping term L: They looked wonderful, all of them in their- just they're so tall. R: With the- the horns L: Yeah, because you've got- you've got the- you've got feet that have been shifted that like, they've got the stilt things going on R: Oooh L: and you've got, you know, the massive costume and then on top of that, yes, you've got antlers. So tall, beautiful costumes. R: My deer, they're not bucking around. L: Woooooow R: I'm sorry for that pun-ishment. You may continue. L: So this small herd of deer walk out and cross in front of my vehicle because I happened to be parked right in front of the crosswalk. So they they walk on the crosswalk, I assume they're heading out for Starbucks or something I don't know. R: Wait, did you say they were heading out for Both: Star Bucks L: yup R: It's still funny I don't- I don't know L: It is R: Okay L: but so they cross in front of me and then one of them just stops and turns their head and stares at me and so I now have this bright blue deer just staring at me in front of my car. I'm sitting in my car staring at them, staring at me, staring at them staring at me staring at them. For a solid moment, like the rest of the herd is moving on and they're just there. Until I finally realized something. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: It was a very grey day, and my headlights were still on. R: *laughs* L: So I turned off my headlights and they just sort of shook their heads briefly, and continued on their way and went and caught back up with the herd. R: And that was the start of your experience with furries. L: That was the start of the- of the at least that year, I don't remember what year it was, but that was the start of the convention for me. I did not run into them again for the rest of the convention but oh my gosh, the commitment to the moment. It was so beautiful. R: They stood in traffic for a gag. Take a moment to realize what we're talking about here. They were so committed to what they were doing L: That they just, yeah, they just stood there, in front of a car. Admittedly not- not a car that was trying to anywhere R: Sure L: but they just stood there. R: sure L: It was beautiful and amazing and I laughed my head off. By the time you guys- You guys came back and I was like "Oh my gosh, you guys have to you know what just happened." R: Well L: It was, it was brilliant, absolutely wonderful. R: You had more- you had more- you received more comedy, I received more philosophy it seems, from this experience that's neat. L: Yes, well you were dealing with badgers and they're wise. R: They are very wise. L: But yeah, that's- that's, I mean mean that R: yeah L: that- that can sum it up for me. I mean furries are wonderful. R: Okay. Well then, you know "What are your experiences with furries?" thumbs up all around. Or paws up. L: Yes R: an awkward paws. L: *an aaaaa noise* R: Moving on. L: Moving on R: Was this- was this for me to read to you? L: Yeah, 'cause you just read- I read them to you first, and so you read this one to me first. R: Year two, episode who knows, I still can't get the format right. L: *laughs* R: I sounded so confident at the beginning. L: It's all right. R: "How do clowns relate to gender in the act of performance and embodiment of characters in a created world" L: That is an amazing question R: Can I add an "oh, snap" to that? L: Yeah that was wonderful. R: Oh snap L: I'm- I mean definitively every clown is going to have their own experience with this, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because gender is a very individualized thing. I want to look at the details on this again. "In the act of performance and embodiment of characters in a created world" R: Break- break it down, for- break it down for characters, you have- you have more than one. L: I do, yeah, so let's see. My first- my first persona Jane identifies as female and you know, I don't know- I don't know that she's given much of a second thought to it. R: Certainly not at first L: Yeah definitely not early on. It's definitely, I mean, it's a- it's a factor in who the- who the character is and something I've realized since playing that character is that Jane is obsessed with the rules. R: Obsessed with the rules L: Yes, and so I think there's definitely a level to which the assumed requirements of femininity were in play R: Part of the rules L: Yeah R: Interesting L: But you'd also definitely describe her as tomboyish. There's no question that that's also part of- of who that character is. R: Yeah, as- as a director watching the character evolve, I know there were certainly the- the child-like glee first L: Yes R: And then after we got to see more of the- the sort of the- the- the rules focused L: yes R: come out of that L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and in that was it was interesting because at first we thought "Oh, maybe this is another- another persona that was coming out" We kept waiting kept going and eventually those merged and that's when I think we really meant that character. L: Oh yeah, 'cause there was the whole haughty, sort of Mary Poppins-ish R: Prissy was the word the kept coming up L: We thought that might be it's own persona. Then it definitely just was the other half of Jane. R: Which both- it's- it's funny because we're- we're not- we're talking about a character so it's L: *Affirmative Noise* R: there is a is a negative personality trait there but softened by the sort of playfulness of that first thing we saw, it turned out to be an amazing asset within a creative company. L: Oh yeah R: Because you had- you had a character who- who was very concerned with the rules L: Yes R: but also ready to play and that is a fun character to have in a scene where you have other people going off the rails because they kind of hold it together L: *Affirmative Noise* Yeah, but so, you know, I don't- the "in the act of performance and embodiment of characters" is an interesting- R: In general L: is an interesting sub segment of that particular R: take it outside of that if you need to, you've got a lot to say. L: And I think- I think I need to because for me, you know, when Chadwick showed up. Chadwick's not the first male character I have performed as because I had an entire series of mask performances, every single one of which were male. R: You temporarily colored my perception of mask performance and made me think it tended to skew masculine until later events revealed themselves because so- every mask we put on you came out male and then in- within a group we had a large number of people having a- a similar experience and then seeing it the other way and then realizing ultimately you're just playing tropes and generalizations and your- most people are just playing with these things L: Yes R: but it- it really did- it really did initially skew my perception of mask to watch that going down. L: Yeah cause we definitely- I- I- there was definitely a moment where somewhere in the middle of- we- we did have a week long intensive and somewhere in the middle of that I definitely stopped and noticed that every single mask character I'd- I'd made felt- felt masculine. Masc masks *laughs* and you know, I- I took that little- that little nugget of- of notice and said "Hmnn yeah, we'll unpack that later, that's- that's not for right now." R: and unpack you did L: Significantly later but yes, R: The other side of that, I think something else that cemented my skew, I was thinking about this, during that time there was an established mask that was one of the performers we met towards the end of the week L: *Affirmative Noise* R: who kind of came in and he was playing a terrible feminine stereotype, just a very, almost- almost crass L: yes R: Screechy just all the things that are really almost bad male tropes and that's a character choice, that's a thing, that's not mine, it had nothing to do with me but I think that plus the other thing I saw there was happening with you and a few other performers really temporarily skewed how I saw what emerges- what emerges from these- these masks and what ultimately I realized was they're- that just primitive L: Yeah, they're primitive and- and one of the things that you- that you have to realize when you're dealing with putting people into a state where they're dealing with- with things they're reading as primitive and they're reading as, you know, I think that the word that's coming to mind and I think I need to frame this is 'defaults' because a huge part of what you do when you're- when you're performing is you're going to be read by an audience and you have to be aware of what they're going to assume and when you're only bringing in a little tiny bit of some- something it's going to be read by the audience and that's going to inform what it is and so you go with defaults and when you're in a room that- you know, I've been- I've been in a lot of different rooms of performers and that is one of the straightest rooms R: It was L: I've ever been R: It was unusually so, for- for all the rooms you've been in. L: For theater R: You make a point, you make a point, and I don't- I don't think that was- I don't think that was anything other than coincidence of that particular room L: yeah R: knowing the people who were involved in putting it together L: it's who happened to have shown up R: yeah L: it's to happened to have shown up into that room was particularly straight and particularly cis and that's going to inform what the defaults are and there's a huge part of cis heteronormative culture where the default is male. So it's going to skew towards male unless they see things that they actively go "Oh, that's feminine" So there were masks that appeared to wear makeup and so those tended to be read as feminine masks. So, that definitely was happening during that week that we were there and I'm- I'm not throwing shade on the people who ran it because I don't think it's on that. It was just who happened to be- R: Please don't, they're friends L: Yeah, no I'm not- I'm- I'm being very clear here it was a- a thing that happened to happen the week we were exploring but, you know, when Chadwick showed up I think that in a lot of ways just like when that hoighty, caretaker rule follower person showed up this was a split that needed to happen for me to explore it that's going to merge back together because something I haven't talked about here or anywhere yet is that I sat down with both of my characters, both of my personas and we attempted to do a interview. R: We were gonna cut it together L: Yeah, we were going to cut it together, so we- we had it so that we sat down with- we sat down with Jane and we sat down with Chadwick and we asked them for questions for the opposite- for the other persona and we did manage to get those before I hit a point in my own explorations of gender and my realizations and the total cracking point for me where when we came back to ask each of those characters those questions, ask each of those personas those questions, I didn't get a chance to try the Chadwick one but I started trying Jane R: because Jane is historically, you've got more time as performing Jane L: Yeah I've had much more time performing as Jane and I couldn't be Jane any more R: I was in the room and unfortunately watched the day not- not Jane broke and it's all gone L: No R: but watch you break, have to stop, and just we- that- as a director we just sat and said "Okay, let's talk about it" and you had to- you had to put that down for a minute L: Yeah is- because of that realization I had where Jane, Jane is a rules follower and so there are things that are just true about Jane and. R: Imaginary people are allowed to be incredibly absolutist L: in the- and- yeah R: Delightfully so L: and it's wonderful, but I couldn't continue to be playing myself authentically through that persona because I had finally processed my way through some rules that I didn't feel continued to apply. So I sat down to do that and it just didn't work. So I don't know where I go from there, necessarily. I know that I do R: Sure L: We haven't had- it's very difficult to develop personas without an audience R: a Lab, I would say L: In a lab situation R: the theater lab L: a theater lab R: is where the best of that work comes out yeah L: Which we don't have access to right now but when- when I look back at Chadwick and at Jane. Jane got to be the very bubbly, very happy baby clown R: *Affirmative Noise* L: that most baby clowns start out as, which is good. The only really negative emotions they got added to her emotional palette were frustration and anger so she could be very happy, she could be very angry or frustrated at you but that was kind of the range of emotions that she had and when I started working with Chadwick, Chadwick is a sad boy. R: I feel bad because as the director and as someone facilitating clown, my job is to make Chadwick cry a lot because it's hilarious L: Yes R: I have watched you dehydrate playing that persona L: because he is absolutely hilarious but he is going to weep at the slightest provocation and I think, you know when- when we did have them sit down and each have questions for each other, one of the questions Jane had for Chadwick was what makes him sad because she couldn't understand it. Like there was a fundamental lack of understanding, like she understood that people are sometimes sad but she doesn't really understand how sadness works R: and I think that personas, whether they're masks or clowns or characters they start off, not as children, but child-like. They start of very innocent and until you create some experiences for them L: *Affirmative Noise* R: They don't- they don't have much of a palette and I remember for example Jane was very childlike and we took Jane to an event where Jane had to literally flirt from a bar. It was a L: Oh yeah the R: and we referred to it L: Clown puberty R: Yeah, we refer to it as the we- as the weekend or the run wherein you went through clown puberty because by the end of it Jane had figured out how flirting worked. Which is not to say Jane was good at it but Jane had it down and it was really funny because everything you did after that it was like you unlocked your ability to bring- I'm not gonna say sensuality or sexuality or eroticism but the idea of the- the possibility of it L: Yes R: that comes with flirtation could come into the work and that again you have to create experiences for clowns to have for them to grow. L: I think- I think the- the way that I sort of feel about that is that, So babies flirt. R: Oh absolutely, L: And clowns flirt in the same way that babies do when they start. R: They're trying to make friends L: And then the thing that came in to how Jane interacts in that period of time was the wink of knowing that it's also something else. It's arguably the same flirtation, but that level of- of you wink about "Yes I am aware of the double entendre" "I'm aware of what- what this could mean" it doesn't necessarily bring any of that the table, it just says "Oh yeah, it wasn't an accident that that got brought when it did." R: I think the- the funniest thing about that was then with each of these evolutions- and what- what remains so much fun about working with clown and personas like this and masks and all of these characters is the more they have in their palette, the more they're gonna surprise you. After a while you learn someone's- you learn someone's schtick. L: Yeah R: I'd I- there's a good side of that, which means I know when we dance you tend to go one direction first L: Yes R: Great, I never have to wonder which way to go L: Yes R: I just have to play with that or against it, depending on the result I want. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The other side of it is, you can get into the point of being in a rut and when somebody brings something new and the work it's so- to me it's a win because now we have "Oh, you said something dirty! You never do that!" L: Yeah R: We have- we have this new thing L: Yeah, yeah, yeah. R: Whereas you as a human are kind of a filthy pig and will say- will say terrible- L: Me? No way R: Yeah, you're an innocent. Like the driven snow. L: *laughs, hissing* R: but I do think that over time you will- you will synthesize all of these things and more and what you'll end up with will be both exactly the same as you've been playing and somehow refreshed and new. L: Yes. R: That's my- that's my point of optimism for you. L: I think that's definitely where we're at. I think it's also important to point out that- that one of the things we did not do at any point was assume the gender of any given character. R: Absolutely not, and when- when you turn this around to me I've got more on that. L: Ok, because I think- I think that's important to say, is that it's not the case that- for anybody out there exploring clown if- like yes, I sat there after a week long multi mask, every single one of them turned out to be masculine R: That's for you L: And sat there and went "Hmn, I wonder if that's something I need to unpack" It doesn't mean anything about your gender that a clown persona that you have has a different one. R: Absolutely not. L: That is definitely a thing that happens, and it's not uncommon. R: One of the- one of the earliest clown- very innocent American clown exercises I remember about playing exaggerations was they told everyone to get onstage and be your mother. L: Yeah R: And so you are, for a portion of the room, playing against your type, you're playing against your gender, you're playing against that and one part of it is to play a loving pastiche of someone, and one part is to play an exaggeration, L: Yes R: and to play something where you may or may not be comfortable and I think that all of these things, if they're played as character choices, as ideas, as- as gentle things. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, taken- taken, whether or not you choose to use them, you know, good or bad, taken with respect when you're playing with them, it's important to explore them all. What you took from that experience is very personal and important, equally important L: Yes R: Not necessarily part of everyone's experience. L: Very much so. That's- R: Right L: So that's one of the things I wanted to point out, is that it's R: yeah L: it's- you know, everybody has both masculinity and femininity to their being R: Oh yes L: in some degree. So that a part of you comes out that's not in line with what the majority of you is, it is not cause for concern. Don't freak out. R: Advice for the players, given by you. L: Yes. R: Well done. L: So, for you, R: For me L: "How do you clowns relate to gender in the act of performance and embodiment of characters in a created world" R: I- I'm gonna really put my teachers hat on for a lot of this L: Awesome R: So- So L: Let's do it. R: One of- One of the things that first comes to mind is a lesson that I've learned repeatedly, in good ways and bad and had to take for myself from the work, is that there's one thing to go "Okay, if it's on stage we cannot ignore it. You cannot ignore Chekhov's gun. You cannot ignore the elephant in the room and you cannot ignore the audience- asking the audience to not see something either leads to an incongruity which may later be resolved or a problem, because you're trying to hide something and then the audience doesn't trust you. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is a problem there but you cannot pretend that that situation doesn't exist, is something that was shown to me and taught to me repeatedly. I want to point out though that's about within the little square that is the stage. I unfortunately had one of the best teaching opportunities and am going to be very careful not to mention a teacher's name but I had a teacher who was not a respectful person in this way and they- they harshly and deeply misgendered someone repeatedly on or off stage and when gently, quietly, this person went to the bathroom for unrelated reasons, everyone leans in and says "Hey, maybe you can fix this", put up a brick- a very ugly brick wall which I will not repeat here and it- watching this, because I'm- I'm far back. I'm dealing with my own traumas relating to performance, I'm going through my own stuff but I'm watching this go down and I think because I was so far away from myself, because I was freaking out about my own L: Yeah R: Stuff because that is what clown stuff when you're learning is really unearthing things in you, is I saw someone in trauma and I said to myself, I said "I do not want- I want to be better than that. I do not wanna be like that. I want to be respectful." Coming into the work as a teacher, one I've- I've worked very hard to make sure that that's where my mind was when came in the room. I've also had the luck to work with people from a lot of different backgrounds and- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and different orientations and different identities and so I've had this really wonderful opportunity to explore that and the reality is, off the stage we have to respect people, on the stage we do have with least acknowledge L: What it is we see, R: what it is L: no matter what it is R: No matter what it is, because it's there and we have to- we have to- we have to own that and if we can't own it and we expect our audience to deal with it, that is- that is incongruous and unfair L: If we do own it and expect our audience to deal with it R: That's a choice L: That's a choice R: And that's good L: Yes. R: See, that's the flip side of this, is that once we're self aware, then we can play with it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Whatever it is and that is good. The other thing that happened, now I get to name names because I get to talk about something good, because I had to dunk on somebody, and now I'm excited. I got to go to study with Angela De Castro who is magnificent. I refer to her as the father of my clown L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because after being devastated by a lot of things she is the one who took the time to put me back together and make me who I am now. There's nothing but reverence there, and- So, I'm in her class and she is- she's a tough cookie and is not gonna take crap from anyone and so you find yourself commiserating with your fellow performers and there was a performer- a clown performer who I really liked and we- we've become fairly good friends, who was non binary and I- I say "Can I ask you a question way out of base" and remember, I'm in London and they know me as the idiot from Texas. L: *Laughs* R: So they've sort of taken the approach that I am a bumbling backwards person and assume everything until I prove otherwise is okay but L: Is in good faith but might be questionable? R: Is in good faith but I need help. Yeah L: Yeah R: There's sort of that, which I think I wish I could live that way all the time, other than the assumptions that get made but I- I'm- So I'm sitting there I'm saying "How does- how does your- how does your gender affect your work?" and they turn and look at me and said "The same way it affects you and yours" and got up and walked away to get more tea, and then we came back and chatted for another hour and my brain during that time, just a- cu- the length of time it takes to make a cup of tea, imploded and rebooted, and what I was left with is, of course it's is incredibly vital and important thing but it is simultaneously absolutely everything and not at all important to the work, until it is. L: Yeah R: If the work's about that, obviously it's critical, if it's not about that, it's not. It must be owned onstage like any other truth. If I walked onstage and I was missing a hand, that could either be tragedy or comedy but it is on stage L: and if you don't address it R: then everybody L: it's distracting R: people are going "Should we say something about? What- what if you need to pick up something? Are you gonna juggle?" Yeah, all the questions happen. It's a visceral visual example, I don't like that that's what I went to, necessarily, but I think it's- it speaks very clearly to what I'm talking about L: Yes R: You have to- you have to address it and the funny thing is, in the cases where you don't, where the comfort is there, it's amazing how irrelevant it is, and the number of clowns I have met who have sort of a- just ambiguousness about them. I think, actually about Foley. L: Oh, nobody knows the gender of Foley really. R: I mean L: I mean, I assume Marie does. R: I assume Marie does, but Marie, who- who identifies as female, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: has this clown, who we love and adore, Blue headed- "blue haired weirdo" we say, named Foley and Foley is sort of like Woody Woodpecker. There's just something am- just ambiguous about the- that it's just- it's good. It's funny. I never stop- I never stop enjoying being there, but simultaneously could dance with me and it be very funny and tango sexy L: But also not sexy Both: at all R: and it's hilarious because it- it- it was never an intentional choice, it was just continuing to follow a set of creative impulses to where you ended up, which was this really delightful place. Where you have someone who is, you know, just- just a personality. A big hello and a weird noise, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: is what the character is, and that's delightful to have. So I think a lot of the idea in- in dealing with- with gender as it comes into the work, is where does it overlap with what you're talking about? You have to address it but then it's- it's- what story are you telling? L: Yes R: You know L: And I mean, once again, when you- when you things like- and I'm jumping in on your answer R: It's okay L: but- but when you look at things like the fact that in many, many cases, you're performing in a space of heteronorma- normativity R: Yeah L: Now, now you have to deal with, if you have a boy clown and a girl clown R: What is their relationship? L: What is their relationship? R: Yeah L: In spaces that are more queer, you have that question in more situations R: In more ways L: But in a very heteronormative space you end up with- it- it pretty much limits itself to- if there is a girl clown and a boy clown, we asked the question "Are they- are they lovers? Are they married?" Which is not necessarily the same thing R: Oh the number of times- or- or- or the number of times I've been asked if I was a- a younger clown's parent. L: Yes, R: because L: "are they parent and child?" R: and they're looking- because children- and this is- this is a double edged sword. Children understand relationships. L: Yes R: and I think what is most interesting in the discussion of like mainstream, you're in a performance environment in the mainstream, where there are- and- and certainly, we're here in Texas, we have seen a lot of very mainstream heteronormative default culture sort of thinking, where the only time and I think- I think about my clown, where I flirt with a man and it's a joke. I flirt with a woman and it's a threat, and I flirt with a lamppost and we're- maybe it's a joke and maybe it's a threat. L: Everybody calms down though because it means R: because it's L: if you- joking- you flirting with a woman didn't matter. R: Exactly and so I think there's this- there is a- if you have that awareness and you play with it, then you both have a chance to challenge it and I always say- and the truth is we're going get in trouble, we're gonna get letters. But I always say that it's the fact that we know these things that allows us to sneak into places where we don't belong so we can ask the question and I think that's where this work gets really interesting not- I do think there's a need to be radical about a lot of things but if the fact is- you can be radical while seeming like you might in some way bumblingly belong? Like you're just bad at it? L: Yeah R: Then you're allowed to get very close to things and drop a little- a little idea in the room and we can all just laugh about it because quote unquote "It's just comedy" but then maybe we change the way someone thinks and I think very often that is the part of this work, when we're at festivals and we're having multiple little- little moments of interactive theater that I really adore, because we have a chance to get close to people and- and share with them what might be a very gentle introduction to a broader perspective. L: Yes R: and I think that's important and I think if you- if you come at everything radically, well then people will come at you- they'll return with defence. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And where I find we do our best work is when people drop their armor. When the defensiveness starts, all the learning stops. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So, for me, I'm always looking for a way- how do we create a little area where we feel safe and when we're in the lab- the other- the other side of this, is when- when we're in the lab and we're in a teaching environment, back to the teaching hat, is I'm always gonna try to create provocative environments and challenging environments and maybe even host- momentarily hostile environments because we need to see how the clown responds. We need them to be safe. We're going to hug them and give them chocolates after. L: Yes R: But we need to know, what- that when you're in that state, what your response is. Do you shut down? Do you freeze? Do you get aggressive? All of these things are absolutely valid human emotions but we need to know so we can own it L: Yes R: What we're gonna see. So the more experience, the better, but not at the expense of your audience. That's where you take it to the lab so when you have these bigger issues to feel out, I hope the teachers- and I've met some that really do, create environments for performers to explore these things such that they can- such that they can work them out and know how to bring them into the world in an effective way. Regardless of what they do with them L: Yes R: Just so it's- it's under control, because when it's under control it's technique and when it's out of control and it goes right, it's just dumb luck. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's not- it's not replicable. L: Yeah R: So, I think that's- again "It's just one thing in your toolbox" is the phrase I come back to on- on anything. L: Yeah, it's something- it's an underlying truth. So I think- I think, yeah that- that R: I think what L: Gender is an underlying truth and you're going to be dealing with it but it's also just what it is. R: I think it's really funny that we just finished talking about this very provocative topic and if you listen very far in the background you can hear a siren going off. L: Yeah. R: It's like in the very far distance and I don't know if it'll end up on the recording but I think the- the distance that- it- it- where we are- we leave, *quiet sirens* R: running away from this question because the gender police might be coming. L: Yes R: So moving on, I just think it's funny, I don't- L: It is R: I don't feel that way, I just think it's funny cause there's a siren L: There is, yes R: and I'm an improviser, So I'm going to work with it. Oh, this is for me now? L: Yes R: I understand the format works that way. L: Well done R: Thank you L: So we have our next question and the next question is R: Yes L: "Is there a prestigious clown group that clowns aspire to be a part of or that has cache among clowns?" R: Oooh. Oooh. I think, first off, the person who wrote this is trying to- is- is- is coming at it the same way I think a lot of people try to impress people. Prestigious implies a resume thing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, they want to- they want to know you're- you're one of the good ones and- L: Yeah R: and I'm gonna- I'm gonna be really honest. When I started my journey, I wanted to build a family, a creative family. Then we could build anything. L: Yes R: and that was my approach and that's how we ended up with like a huge circus full of people at one point because we just kept saying "Yeah, come along! We'll figure out what to do with it when we get there" and we started running shows that way and they're terrible because you've just crammed a lot of people in the room and hoped it went well and when I didn't understand was how those great groups got made was they went up to someone and said "Hey I like the way you play, let's play together" and if it went well, that was good, "Let's do it again" L: What- what great groups? R: What great groups? L: Yeah. You need to back up, because you're not answering the question. R: I'm getting there. L: *laughs* R: A great group of clowns, see? I did it. Any great group of performers, clown, circuses, is that what what happens is they are not actually built by cramming a bunch of talent together and then something magically they write shows. What happens is people who happen to be already working together, come together and because they like doing that they keep doing that. I did this the hard way and crammed people together who honestly had no business being together, who had different ideological values on how work should be approached. Which was great 'cause we all learned a lot and we all learned that we didn't need to be working together and we all went our separate ways and then what I was left with was ultimately a group of people who wanted to do what I refer to as- as physical theater, or clown theater and- and that's the part that interests me. It took me a really long time to learn this idea that who you want to work with is those people. Additionally, there are- if you meet someone and you go "Their work is so great. They are so magical. I hold them up high". Go take a workshop from them, go learn from them. But don't expect them to hire you because they're going to look at you and say "You know-" and I even- and I say this because I know people who are further down the road than me who who say good things about me but they don't want to work with me because they're working at a level that so above where I am that it would take me years just to catch up and they would have to slow down, and what this leads me to is also there comes a point in your life and I think I'm- I'm a little bit there, where you look around, you're the only one- you're the only one doing what you do and so you ask people to come learn from you and to be your student and I- I- I got asked once, we were doing a workshop on truth in performance. I remember, we were in this little tiny parlor theater and it was a magician's theater so it's very small and a guy invited me in to teach this, we were doing truth in performance we're doing all these workshops and we're sitting down. I'm sittin' on the stage and kind of wrapping with people at the end and they said "Why do you teach? Since we're all being truth?" and I hemmed and I hawed and I kinda do what I always do, which is talk around the problem till I finally work my way to the middle and I said "You know, there's not a lot of people do what I do, and I want to literally make friends. I want to teach people how to become clowns so I can play clown games with them, which is my favorite thing in the world. I love to play silly little clown games and in order to do that I have to teach you enough so you can come play with me." Now sometimes you meet someone- I'm looking deeply into Liam's eyes. Sometimes you meet someone and they get it and they learn very quickly and you suddenly find yourself sort of walking side by side, and you say "We should do stuff, because you're funny and you- I'm fun- we're kind of- we're both bad at this. So let's go!" and those are the people who you end up building great stuff with. So my- my short version answer to this is I think I'm most proud to be a member of The Circus Freaks because I worked like heck to get here. L: Yeah R: You know, this troupe is- is built- I built it because I- I auditioned for big circuses and they didn't want me. The- the short version of that story is, I auditioned for Ringling at one point and they pulled me aside and they said "You are fantastic, we're going to tell you something but you need to promise us when we tell you, that you don't stop doing what you're doing because what you're doing is amazing" these are the exact word said to me, they said "You know, you're- you're amazing. You're no good for what we do, but you are so important for what you're doing." and it meant a lot because I was literally told I was too weird for the circus. L: *laughs* R: and that freed me from that desperate need to be a part of something. So yeah. I've- I've gone and I've literally slept in barns to go and learn from a living legend and I learned a lot. Living legend didn't want to work with me and you know the truth is in most cases I didn't want to work with the living legend. I wanted to learn from the living legend and I've had people who have been in workshops or I've- I've been on gigs with, who years later I'm still friends with and we're always like "Yeah, we're gonna- as soon as the stars align" and every now and then they do and we get to do something and it feels so good because those are people who play the same way you do L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I think, prestige looks really good of my resume, you know, the fact that I went to all these different places to learn from people means I have a very impressive resume as an educator, as a performer, but the reality is whether or not a good on stage is what matters and the real reality is, none of that matters if I'm not playing well with others and I learned that the hardest way. Which is I learned that from juggling. So you learn to throw balls in the air and you catch them, you can juggle by yourself. Congratulations you're a juggler. If you stand in a room by yourself long enough you can juggle. Now you want to juggle with someone else. You and I throw clubs. L: Yes R: Yes and we love doing it. It's a nice warm up and it's fun. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We throw some clubs back and forth. To learn that, and we both kind of did this independently, you have to go find someone better than you L: *Affirmative Noise* R: If you meet someone who's good at passing clubs, it's because they stood across from someone who was better than them who threw the club's back until they figured it out. It is the only way to learn this and it's sometimes referred to as "The jugglers debt" or "the jugglers karma" too take this thing where "Okay I've learned this skill" and you meet someone who is not as good as you, "Yeah, I'll spend one gym throwin' clubs back at you. That's the least I can do" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and also everyone's very understanding, if a rock star walks in the room who is really talented, they're gonna be throwing stuff to people who don't have their level of ability L: Yeah R: until they go find a tougher room L: Yeah R: There are things to learn, when you're sitting in the seat where you are the- the- the stronger juggler on the room, there are things to be learned. You learn how to clean up garbage, you learn how to fix problems in the- in the moment but ultimately what you really learn is how to play well with others, to some degree, 'cause if you don't no one's gonna wanna play with you. L: Yeah R: and that's the lesson that was viscerally taught to me by juggling that I think really applies to this, which is that; play well with others and you'll be invited to go play places and if not, well no one wants to play with you because even if you're the most skilled person the world and you're a jerk no one- no one likes you "Ok great, you can work by yourself. Have fun" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and to me, the most fun thing in the world to do is to get to do something with somebody else because if I'm up on stage by myself, I gotta do all the work. I've got to come up with everything. L: Yeah R: If I'm on stage standing next to you? I don't have to come up with anything. I just have to be there for you and respond what you give me. L: Yes R: and it will always be great L: Yeah. R: Even if L: Because we're both doing that. R: Right, exactly, exactly. L: Yeah. R: Exactly. So I think- I think the approach to prestigious organizations, because there are, you know, clown troupes that have been around for long time I guess but I don't- I don't think it's the right approach creatively to be good and I do admit that at the beginning of my career I was very the- Oh, I wanted to be a part of the big thing and I would act like the big kids and that's where I learned that lesson where those that are better than you will say nice things about you and won't work with you because you're not ready. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's not that they don't like you, they like you a lot, they hope you will someday get to where they, you know, they retire and they know that somebody good's going forward or maybe you'll get a moment where you work together L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but it's- there's a- there's a very strange relationship there because there's a- there's an unevenness of where you are on that- on that journey, you know, there is a clown who said that "We're all on the same mountain and it's like, if you know more than me then, you're the guide and if I know more than you then I'm the guide and maybe we'll walk alongside each other and if we don't like doing that? Well, I'll see you at the top" and I think that- I think that's a good way to look at it. That's a good way to work. L: Yeah R: So that's- that's my answer. How about you? What pres- let me get the- I've gotta get my glasses out 'cause I've been running my mouth. "Is there a prestigious clown group that clowns aspire to be a part of or that has cache among clowns? L: I think you- I mean, you did a great job covering this R: Sorry I didn't leave you very much. L: In that- in that the answer is kind of no, but also that the answer has been yes. R: Oh? L: At various points in time, because I mean, you look at- you look at something like Ringling R: It's a big show L: It's a big show, it's a big deal. And you look at something like, Cirque du Soleil has a talent bank. R: It's very prestigious to be in there. L: And it is very prestigious to be in there. So, it's- that definitely does exist and I mean, and it exists and the idea of trying so hard to be a part of that, exists enough that there is the term "train chaser" which is somebody who is following, I mean, this is from- R: The circus L: Barnum and Bailey, Ringling R: Yeah L: Barnum and Bailey days of wanting to get in so badly R: that you follow the train L: That you follow the train from place to place and aud- and try to audition again and again and again, if they said no. R: It's a interestingly and- and- and no surprise to anyone, it's- it's a derogatory- I've heard the term, it's a derogatory term. L: It's not a- it's not a nice thing to say about somebody. R: Because, you're- you know what they call you, you know what they call you if- if- if they don't think of you that way? They call you that nice kid who showed up. L: Yes R: and maybe stuck around or maybe didn't but if you're- if they have to call you a name? They don't like it. L: Yeah. R: Yeah L: Because the reality is, chasing the train is a distraction from doing the work. R: I got goosebumps from your wisdom. Did you see it? I'm going to put that- I'm gonna put that in my clown wisdom file. I'm not being sarcastic at all. That was a- you've got a brain, you use it twice a day. You're so smart. L: It's good sentence because it is- it's a distraction from doing the work. As you've pointed out, if you're doing a thing, if you're doing the thing you wanna do, you will turn around one day and look and see the other people who also want to do the thing you want to do in a similar way to the way you do it and you'll go "Hey, we should do something together" and they will either say yes or no and it will happen or it won't and if it doesn't you keep doing what you're doing. You keep working on your development as a clown and in clown because anything, and I think this counts for almost anything in any discipline. Any prestigious group and I'm not saying it's not worth getting into some of them, because depending on the discipline, sometimes it is but they all started when someone turned around and looked at his or her or their group of friends and said "Hey, we've been doing a thing for a bit. We should probably give it a name." R: That is absolutely correct. You brought it home. Well said. L: So- So- So, the answer is yes, there are few and it's- it's- it's not worth it to waste your time freaking out about it. Get the opportunity to audition for something that's big? Yeah, do it. R: You know what L: It's a learning opportunity if nothing else. R: You know, it comes to mind, also one of the things we love about the clown in a show, when you think about a big show L: Yeah R: and it doesn't necessarily have to be big show to be a good clown but this is what I'm thinking about. They're by themselves. We like them 'cause they're lonely. That's why they become the audiences' friend. L: Yeah R: because they're clearly lonely. So if you are part of something so big there's no room for the audience, you're never going to make their relationship. So finding a balance and I think you've got the right idea, if it happens to happen or if you happen to be in the right place? Lucky you. L: Yeah do it. Do it. Do not let- to do not, you know, shoot yourself in the foot on on getting the opportunity to try something big R: but at- but at the end of the day, don't chase the train, do the work. I'm going to put it on a shirt maybe someday. It's so good. I'm not put on t-shirt but I am going to like it. L: Alright. It matters more to me that it's in that list of yours than- than- than- than that it's on a shirt for somebody somewhere. R: It's gonna be on the list, it's on the list. It's a good one. Yeah, so that's a- that's well answered. L: Thank you R: Well answered I'm- I'm actually very- I'm sitting here very impressed. L: It is very easy to come up with a succinct and a nice answer Both: After L: listening to you go and walk through it. R: It's called putting the button on a thing. L: Yes R: in the industry. If you can put a button on the thing, it's good. Here's the cool trick L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Can you and I don't know- I'm not- this not a challenge. This is just a- a thought for the day. Can you come up with- with one of those phrases that works without the unpacking? That's when it's really good. L: That is when it is really good. R: and L: Which admittedly, that one is not one that works without the unpacking R: That one's not. L: You do need to unpack that one. R: I've got a couple in my bag that I use sometimes but not many. Not many. Okay, I have another question for you. L: Yes R: Since you're on a roll, you- you're wise today, L: Why thank you. R: Wise between your ears. L: *laughs* I'm sure I've heard that before, but it's hitting me today. Okay. R: All right. Stumbling backwards from wisdom, I'm going to ask you this question. L: Yes R: "Is a taco a sandwich?" L: *pause* No. R: That's it? L: I don't think a taco is a sandwich. I think they're two different things. R: Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. What about- what about the variations of a taco, you know, think about other cultures. What about a gyro, where it's got the pita bread? No? L: No. R: No? L: No, I don't think that's a sandwich. R: Wait a minute. Go- go all the way, doener kabab? L: No R: You- you are- you're very pi- what? What makes- is it that it's connected? Is that your problem? L: I mean, that does, it does kind of freak me out. Yeah. R: Wait a minute, what if I make one of the subway sandwich or a hoagie and I leave the bottom of the bread connected? L: That bothers me. It's still a sandwich but only barely. R: A ba- just t- slap my hand down. *sound of slapping something* No. I'm bothered by- I'm bothered by that. Wow. L: You're bothered by that? R: I'm bothered by your sandwich bigotry. L: Look, look, look. I understand this is the sort of thing that people get into major arguments about. R: We just did L: I do not intend to get into a major argument about it. If someone feels that a taco is a sandwich, they can feel a taco is a sandwich. If they ask me if I want a sandwich and they give me a taco I will be very annoyed. R: Why? Tacos are delicious. L: Not if I'm prepared for a sandwich. R: You're not emotionally prepared for a variant sandwich? L: Not for a taco. R: *whistles* L: It's not a sandwich. R: Okay, I see how it is around here. I see, L: Alright. R: I see. L: Well let me ask you, "Is a taco a sandwich?" R: Before I answer this question L: Yes R: I have to point out that we've- we've been thrown under a particular bus, because in very late night chats, I occasionally get a message at random, someone says "We need the salad clown". This- this literally- L: *laughs* R: This literally happens someone'll go "We need the salad clown to arbitrate a dispute." I say "What?" this happened because after many, many late night conversations, a group of friends have decided that for whatever reason, unfathomable to me, whenever they got into a dispute of what is or isn't a salad, they would ask me to split the vote. L: Yes R: and because I did this a couple of times and because I am willing to get out my opinion shovel and dig up a bunch of opinion dirt, make a little opinion hill, climb on top of it and die there, just for the sake of comedy, this became a thing they liked. So "Salad Clown" it was "The Salad Clown has spoken" and then that was it, and then everybody would argue me into the ground and L: Well then of course, the side question is, Is a taco a salad? R: Absolutely. It's got all the good- it's got crunchy bits on the- on- on some of the surfaces, it's got some protein in there, there's veggies, there's a sauce, absolutely a salad but returning to the question L: Yes R: "Is a taco a sandwich?" Look, you've got a protein wrapped in a carb with an optional vegetable and a condiment. L: Yes R: That is the bare minimums of sandwich-dom in my- I am a very open sandwichy person. I'm also a very closed sandwichy person. In fact I'll go so far as to say that something totally encased is still possibly a sandwich. L: Well, that's a wrap. R: I'm not done talking. L: Yeah, I know, but I still had to say it. *laughs* R: You got me. You got me. I will say that it is- I will say that it is a sandwich and ravioli? Sandwich too. Pirogi? Sandwich too. L: Wow, you're going to double down on R: Only because of the way you walked in here like you owned the world and demanded that tacos be ousted. I'm inviting them all in. I am the statue of liberty of lunch food. That's what I'm saying. L: Okay, no. I'm gonna take issue with you saying that I- I stood here and- and came in like I owned the world. R: Give me your tired, L: because R: your hungry, L: because R: your poor L: No, because R: your carbohydrates wrapped around things, yearning to be eaten. L: Here's the thing. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I believe that there should be a category of carbohydrates wrapping a protein and or some veggies and that being a walkable snack or meal R: Yeah L: because it's a delightful thing that has happened in many, many cultures. R: Sure L: I don't think that it's appropriate for that umbrella category to be named after the Earl of Sandwich. I think that's incredibly ea- western euro centric in a way that's probably problematic. R: I think I just got cancelled. L: *laughs* R: I think I did, because I think you're right. L: Because- because the question of is a sandwich a taco? R: wha- L: Should be equally valid, and yet we're in this- in this culture R: I'm- I'm not going to L: that feels like one of those is a better umbrella term than the other. R: I'm not going to defend myself, I'm gonna go down in flames. That's fine, but I want to ask a question. L: Yes R: The Earl of Sandwich's goal was to eat food while playing cards at a table, ostensibly the whole format was to not get any food L: Yes R: On the cards, L: Yes R: On the clothes, on the table, because that'd be rude, you'd to be asked to leave. No more cards. L: Yes R: So based on that, I think any food the qualifies in that minimalist definition, cultural understanding notwithstanding, is arguably sandwich and I think the Earl of Sandwich and anyone else who eats handheld foods worldwide would agree, based on that argument. L: Yes, although that does put messy sandwich theory out the window. R: Oh no. Messy sandwich theory, for those who don't know, is that the better a sandwich tastes, the messier it is. We've thought about this a lot. L: Yes R: because only- the only good sandwich is one that when you're done eating you- you need L: You look at your plate and you go "Oh, I'm so glad you were there." R: Yeah, you think "Free salad" L: Yeah R: oddly enough. Or soup if it's a very wet sandwich L: So I'm not sure- I'm not sure that I have an answer to what I think should be used for that category, R: But you know the Earl of Sandwich is- is not it. L: I just- I feel like it's- I feel like culturally, maybe we should reflect on our insistence R: *laughs* If you weren't smiling your head off L: in using an English term R: If you weren't smiling your head off, I might believe that you were doing anything other than throwing me under a salady sandwichy bus but I see your point. I concede that you have a point. I will still say, that for the record, I was asked, do I think a taco is a form of sandwich. L: Yes, that was the question that was asked. R: And I will say yes, but I also say the pupusa is too and I will correspondingly say, not all sandwiches are all these other things. It's not a one to one. I'm not trying own the world here, I'm just trying to- I'm just trying to disagree with you, I think L: Okay R: I think L: We're having a fight, that's what's happening here. R: A big, big screaming match. *rawrs* L: *snaps fingers repeatedly* R: Oh, you're doing the *joins in the finger snapping* *sings* do do do do do. (referencing musical gang violence) You know, L: Oh careful. R: We shouldn't do that. L: yeah, R: we shouldn't L: Copyright. R: Oh I wasn't thinking about that. I was thinking we have music coming up. L: Oh, we do have music coming up. You're right, because I think that was *pause* Yes. That was our last question. R: Yeah. I assumed L: that was our final question of the night R: I assumed it was from the stack of the cards moving around. L: Yeah R: Here's the thing, last time we did this, I had a friend provide us with a remix an actual L: yes R: *bass sounds* remix of our theme. Which I think is delightful. L: Yes R: This time, I figured, we gotta go the opposite extreme. Heartwarming, old school renditions of. L: All right R: Just outside this door, an adorable rendition of our theme song, following the classic format. L: That sounds wonderful R: That's a thing to look forward to. In the meantime, I wanted to say thank you to you for hanging out with me. L: Thank you, and thank you to all of you for hanging out with us. R: Absolutely. You guys have been great listeners. I feel like we've- I've been very listened to. If you have any questions about things we said, other than the sandwich thing, cause- No, I mean, even that's fine but I mean if you have any questions, send them along. We would love to hear them. L: Yes, please do. As we- we not only would love to hear them, we would love to answer them. R: That's true, we like both. L: Because without your questions, there is no reason to lock us in this closet. R: and then we don't get snacks when we get out of this closet L: And that would be tragic. R: You know it's even more tragic? L: What? R: I'm not sure if I want a taco or a sandwich now. L: Oh no. R: Yeah L: Well, we'll have to see what we have, we'll go from there. R: What we have is a lovely time on our podcast, known as L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Who are now going to exit the closet, and go have a snack because we did the job and them's the rules. L: Yes R: All right. Oh theme song! *door opens* *Theme Music Plays*