----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 13 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-12-26 ----------------------------------- *Door Closes* Russ: The quality of door slam always tells me it's going to be a good episode. Liam: I think this one is. R: I- It always is but when I hear that- that nice sturdy slam L: Yeah R: I know "Ahh, I'm on my mark. I'm ready. I'm here" it is very cold L: Yes R: So, for the purposes of history, we are on a weekend of record cold again. L: Yes R: We did this last time too and the closet is very cold and it is a bit later at night than we're used to. L: I think you have also not gotten under the blanket. R: I have not. So, these things are true. I have now warmed the foot L: Good R: and hopefully that will sustain me throughout these many minutes where we spend together, up the stairs, around the corner, past the bookshelf, into this little meat locker of a closet for another exciting episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: There it is. Episode thirteen L: Oooh, lucky thirteen. R: Lucky thirteen or season two, episode five, depending on how you like to do math L: Fair R: Fair. If you don't like to do math, this is another episode L: Yes R: of the podcast and we are here we have some of your questions L: We do have a stack of questions right here R: and I just- I'm just excited to get into it. L: I can tell, because there has been decidedly less banter R: Oh well, L: than usual R: don't- don't let me stop- I was the one who brought up the complaint of banter L: You did bring up the complaint of banter R: Far be it from me to deny L: to limit R: yeah L: To limit the levels R: To limit, deny, restrict, categorize or- or minimize in any way the B.S.-ing we do before we actually get down to business L: The banter sounds? R: Yes. *laughing* R: Yes. L: Yes the banter sounds R: We're- that's- banter sounds, right now L: Banter R: My fav- L: That's what's happening R: Yeah, my favorite part, I've noticed there's a pattern. I'm doing the show notes, and I always notice when we actually get to the question, if the- if the number is far enough in, I feel like, "Oh, yeah. We are- we're doing good" and if not, hmn, maybe- we're in- we're rushed. L: Yeah, don't want to feel rushed. R: You know it reminds me of? L: What does it remind you of? R: I was asked to audition for a show and we sent a tape and they- they- they looked at the tape and they said "We need your act to be ninety seconds. Can you shorten it up?" and we sent this big act, it was like six or seven minutes long. They said "Can you- can you shorten it up?" and I- and I honestly told them I wasn't sure I could get on stage in ninety seconds. L: Yeah, I'm not sure we can. R: We didn't get the gig, and I consider that a win, but at the same time, I am now aware that I like that. All shows that start with the "(like a trumpet) Bum Bum Bum Bum! Let's go!" stress me out. "Shut up and pay attention" stresses me out. But that soft thing where you suddenly notice "Oh, I'm in the show, it- it's- it's already going ok" L: "A thing appears to be occurring" R: Yeah. I've- that is my favorite part of the work of the clown, is that we get to say hello to everybody and sort of bring them into the world. L: Yes R: Sometimes I've looked to do that in ways in shows, where I'm just- I'm just trying to find ways to bring people into our world so they can play with us and I- I love when we get to do it. We going to wander around in the audience before show and then we get up on stage and we act like "Oh look, total strangers!" and everybody is like "Hey it's our friends!" and it goes really well. L: Oh yeah, those are lovely R: And then people ask us "Why do you do that?" and I say "Because it goes really well and people love us and that's the part I like!" because "Alright, get on with it" is never what I want to hear. L: No, no we never want that. R: I am- I feel like- I hope none of these questions cover this because two things of note, we are under rehearsed tonight, which I think we should just admit L: Yes R: So L: We did- we did an abbreviated rehearsal R: So this should be the least- the- the most unplugged, real thing we've ever done or we're going to freeze and freak out, or literally freeze because it is cold in here and two, I'm just ranting about things. So I don't know and it's late at night. L: We'll see- we'll see how it goes. R: I'm- I'm open to it. *pause* Oh, you felt the weight of it. Didn't you? That was when we should start? and we missed it. L: Yes. R: And we missed it? L: That was it, right there. R: Teachable moment, sometimes you need to actually get on with it and we missed. So now we gotta go another minute till the moment arrives again, and then you can- Oh, there's one coming, isn't there? Do you have cards? L: I do. R: Well then L: I have a question for you. R: Oh, what's your question? L: The question, as provided R: Oh, I thought this was a question from- from you but "I have L: from our lovely people R: a question for you" I thought you were- I thought you were just going to ask me "I have a question for you, esteemed colleague? Provide me with some knowledge" You're like "Naw, I'm trying to get on with it" L: And it seemed like a really nice, solid segue and yet now, R: We have to go again L: We have to go again R: This is the material I think people really show up for, because we've gotten letters about a lot of things but never this. L: True R: We're going to get- Now we're L: Now we're going to get R: Somebody is gonna say "Hey, can you get on with it?" I would love that. If that happens, I'll be okay with it. I won't- I won't listen but I'll be ok with it. *both laugh* L: Of course, now you've told people you won't listen if- if they R: I listen all the time L: If they send a message saying "Get on with it" R: I listen all the time. What were you saying? L: That I had a question for you. R: Oh, I would love a question. That's sort of the format of the show really. L: It is the format of the show. R: We- we get L: I have these lovely questions R: Yeah L: that I've written down on these note cards R: The note cards, which have become- in my mind, I- no one sees them because it's an audio based presentation L: yes R: How about that for some old man words L: *laughs* R: but, with my face for radio and my mental imaging I always think of the cards because they're such a- they're- they're the one of the props of the thing, I think of that and the think of the rack of shoes behind your head. That's what I think of when I think about doing this. L: Oh, that's understandable, yeah. R: That's all there is a my universe. So, I'm looking at shoes, I see some cards in the corner of my vision, there is a microphone that in my brain is full of my friends L: Yes R: Hello friends. Did you have a question? L: I did R: You- are you going to get around to asking it? L: Eventually R: What are you waiting for? Oh, are you waiting for- L: I'm waiting for- R: One of the L: I'm waiting for the moment. R: The moment L: The- the time to- R: It's- it's tough to find L: to slide in R: Speaking- (switching to a haughty accent) speaking from my- my- my advanced body of work, allow me to tell you, that sometimes you just trip over it and you walk past it, three or four times before you finally get there. (returns to normal voice) I don't know why I'm doing that voice L: I don't know why you're doing that voice either, but talking about tripping past it three or four times before you suddenly get there. I'm suddenly reminded of a story that is Winnie the Pooh, in the early Winnie the Pooh book. R: Like- like A. A. Milne L: Yeah. R: Oh L: yeah, yeah, yeah R: Do tell, do tell. L: In which- in which Pooh Bear finds himself tracking a set of footsteps- a set of- prints in the snow and then suddenly there's an additional set of tracks in the snow. R: *Interested hum* L: And then Piglet shows up, R: *More vigorous interested hum* L: and then they go following these footprints again R: Investigating L: Investigating them and ah- spoilers, for those who have not read Winnie the Pooh R: Did we just to put a Pooh warning on our- L: I did yes, R: Okay L: it turns out that he's just been going around the same small circle of trees, multiple times, following his own tracks in the snow. R: I feel like this- this brings us full circle. I feel like this is my whole life and- and it brings us to this moment. Yeah. It feels- that feels exactly like what everything I do is. We're going around in circles tracing our own footsteps. L: Yes R: Philosophically very deep that bear. L: Yes R: Yeah, also not very bright L: Not the brightest, no, but- but very deep. R: Deep, deep bear. Thank you for sharing. That was a lovely story. L: You're welcome. R: It's in the public domain now. L: It is in the public domain, which is one of the reasons why I was reading it. R: We- we will link to it. L: Oh good, yes. R: Yeah can just link to it. L: Yes, we can just link to it. R: We can just do that, there's no- no we're not going- we can even talk about it, because we're not going to get, you know, sued into oblivion or get letters or anything. L: Exactly R: I love the notion that someone will actually put a stamp on something to yell at me L: Send a letter? Yes. R: I say we'll get letters because I actually have gotten letters in my life, scathing ones, but I love the idea that someone would like "Stop Talking" *laughs* we get a postcard from somewhere nice, it says "Dear clowns, stop talking!" L: "Get on with it already!" R: Oh that'd be great. Okay, there it is. That's- that's my new podcast goal. To receive a postcard from whe- "Wishing you a hello from sunny", you know, "shell beach" or something and on the back it says Together: "Get on on with it!" L: -Clowns" R: Speaking of which, L: Oh. I have a question. R: Oh, that would be a lovely way to start. L: Well, the question that I have, from our lovely audience R: The- the postcard havers. L: Yes, the postcard havers. R: Yes? L: Have sent R: Oh, do tell. L: The question "What's the weirdest place you've ever been asked to clown at?" R: I think it's only fair that we rule out this tiny little closet. L: Yes I think that's probably best R: Because, while we were asked to do this, the reality is no one- no one's here. L: Yeah, and this isn't clown R: Not particularly, I'm clowning around L: Yes but this is not- this is not clown. R: It does tell me this though. One of the things that comes to mind is that the clown really is the only circus act that really needs the audience. You know? It- it's the only one that- you can do things and- and they work L: Oh yes R: mechanically if you're an acrobat, an aerialist, a juggler, what have you but the clown needs the audience more than anyone and one of the things that we have discussed many times is that while I have worked on projects that were videotaped L: Yes R: that were, would dare I say, filmed, there was a live audience and so you were playing off the live audience while being captured. L: Yes R: and that was very comfortable for me because I- I had an audience L: and in some of those cases you actually hear the audience R: Oh yeah, and I think that's really important. Where I'm going with this is that we have done a few video projects where- not many but just a few, where we had no one in the room but us L: Yes R: and one of them, I remember, one I remember is the- the holiday greeting card we- we republish over and over and over because people like it. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Which is a little silent film I did, and you're actually sitting behind the camera so I have an audience to play to. You're not even filming, we had a videographer. L: Yeah, we had a videographer R: You L: but I was behind the videographer R: just being an audience yeah L: watching, yes. R: and that made it possible and what the contrast was was from that to when we did a film project, there was a convention that got canceled during the pandemic and we agreed to put together a show. We filmed, we set up lights, we set up everything and we performed to an empty room. We literally looked into a spotlight and did the job and it was so odd coming from a background of live theater and not doing this, which is just talking to the air, which I couldn't do if you weren't sitting here friend. L: Oh definitely, yeah. R: That wouldn't- that wouldn't work for me. L: it'd be much, much harder R: but what I think I remember was how much more energy it required, and how much more- I mean it worked. I think it went- it worked well, but the level of energy expenditure to put it out there without something live giving you feedback, and I will say that I think it is probably- it is probably different if you're creating video content for the purpose, clown being it's own sort of thing where you're connecting to an audience L: Yes R: and it- what I found is I- I found myself really just imagining that the audience was there with me, imagining them responding to me, trying to put that out there. Which is a thing that you're told, when you're training clown, when you're learning, never to do because you're supposed to listen to the Both: actual audience R: Yes, exact- you've heard me say it. So, I think the weirdest thing I- the weirdest time I've ever been asked to do a thing was when there was no audience. So that's that's my immediate response to that is, because in my mind the clown- and this is this ongoing debate we've had a lot of times is can this work be done without a live audience, and I dare say no. L: I think it can R: No L: I think it's R: It's different, it changes it L: difficult, I think it's harder. I think- I think there's a strong argument that the- that when you've got a full- and I haven't had this experience, so I'm not sure R: Sure L: but I would hazard a guess that when you have a full crew, which means a lot of people around who are witnessing you- R: *Affirmative Noise* L: That might R: Well and that's what I was L: function as an audi- like that might, give you the opportunity to actually do that, because, you know, say that you can't do this on film is clearly not true because some of the greats R: Oh sure L: in clown R: Were silent films L: were silent film stars R: What I'll tell you about that, from my own experience, was I was on a show that they asked us to come in and do a big long tech rehearsal, and then you do the show, and I was just- I told them "I'll mark my lights. I'm not going to perform to an empty house" and I wasn't being pretentious or egomaniacal. I was making sure tech got what they needed L: Yes R: and they knew their cues but I wasn't gonna waste my time pretending there was an empty room and they weren't gonna waste their time watching me pretend when I could rehearse the tech off the stage, in this case, and for whatever reason- so they they did, they did a tech and we did that and they were very grateful that I wasn't just faffing about, and then later that night we had a dress. L: Yes R: and still to an empty room and I was like "Um, that's not really-" L: "a thing I do" R: because I don't put on a costume to be the clown, I let the clown out of a cage and it like a lion just takes the stage and eats it L: and look, you want that in the predictable scenario of there's an audience that's here to see a show. You don't want it R: Correct L: in a- in a- unpredictable scenario R: but here's what happened, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the producer of the show had for whatever reason invited his family to come sit in the front row L: Oh, that's enough R: and so instead of me going out there half on or not doing it, I was like "Well, there's an audience" and I walked out and even not fully in- in drag, I wasn't fully in costume had enough to tech, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I came to life and I did the act and I- and- and as they put it, they- they killed them, as the producer said I may have done better in the dress than I did in the live show because it was just a very funny, intimate, connected little performance. So, empty performance halls come to mind. Oh and related to that L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'm just thinking about this idea of like, being in the wrong place, because to me the clown's correct place is with the audience. L: Yes R: Any time there's a massive party going on, like an event, is a massive party, L: Yes R: and they want to stop the party and have them look at me and watch me have more fun than they were? I don't understand why I'm there. So that's when it's very strange for me, and it- you know, I've learned, now, say no to that. L: Yes R: but, you know, it's one thing to go and- and perform in a museum that- where everything's being very uptight and proper and it's weird that you're there and that- that breaks the ice L: Yes R: and also I get to juggle in front of a dinosaur which is- is great fun L: oh, totally R: but flip side, if there's a big event and they go "Now we stop the festivities to watch this schmuck drop his hat" Why would anyone want that? And the answer is, no one does. They just don't know where- they- they think of entertainment as like a plumbing problem. We know there needs to be entertainment here so we'll put a plunger onstage and hope it sorts out. It doesn't work that way. L: Yeah, and what they don't realize, is you can release a clown into that environment and, in a way that's not- in a way that's organic R: Sure L: They will draw that same crowd, people will set down the things they're doing to find- to find out what it is that's going on. R: Right L: but that's because something's already going on. R: So, you know, and so in summary to my point, it's- it's whenever we don't belong there at all L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I- I go "What are we doing here?" and then whenever there- if there's not an audience, I don't really understand what my purpose is. I'm not saying it's not possible to create performances, and again I've done that, when there's- you know, on video or things L: Yeah R: but I've- I play to audiences and I need that connection and that's why I do it. So to do it without that would strike me as like, why?- that's when I would ask the "Why would I do it here?" L: *Affirmative Noise* Yeah. R: So, that's that's gonna be my answer to that. I should turn this question to you. L: That makes sense, yeah. R: I am- where?- the- the exact words, getting the glasses, "What's the weirdest place you've ever been asked to clown at?" L: Um, I feel like you- you did just a great- such a great job answering this one. R: You've got stories. L: I will say, in that same category of like "Why- why are we here?" I find it amazing how many places with breakable objects we get invited to. R: People have let us juggle and throw things in rooms full of glass. I've ridden a unicycle through an art gallery, you're right. L: You've juggled in front of a dinosaur, you just mentioned. R: I mentioned that, which if I dent the dinosaur it's not like they take it out of my pay L: We went- we went and R: besides, where would we keep it *laughs* L: I think there was, was it- it must have been a wedding happening in this old historic house R: Oh, it was a mansion, I know what you're talking about L: Yeah, there's this old, historic, like, mansion that's- that's being preserved, like as a- it's a historical R: who knows L: space. I don't all the details about it but I do know that I walked in and I was like "Everything here is breakable and old. Why are they letting clown- why are they inviting clowns to run amok here?" R: I would like to point out that I, as the- as one of the old breakable things that was standing next to you when you had that realization, I'm very glad that you clair- clarified plural clowns and I wasn't just another breakable in the room. L: Oh no, no, no, no, no. R: Thank you L: No, I jumped on you on multiple occasions. In fact, there was- in fact there was a point where you had the save me, on that particular event, by carrying the bodily out of a room. R: Oh is that the- the- the- the- you- you entered a room full of people who were not having it. L: So, as happens on- in some family events, that you- you will find that there is a room where everybody who is tired and sort of done with the fact that there are festivities has entered, and in this case it was what felt like a very stuffy room R: it was the hall of not having it. L: full of chairs R: yeah, it was the hall of not having it L: and- and Jane walks in there and sees a bunch of people sitting in a circle and decides of the appropriate- the appropriate way to- to handle this situation is to play this game she knows. So she starts going around the circle putting her hand above each person's head, not- not too close to people but enough that- that it's visible what she's doing and saying "Duck, duck, duck.." and R: None of them looked happy L: and none of them were having it. No, didn't look unhappy R: okay L: they actually looked- they looked amused but none of them looked like they wanted to engage further. R: So you were L: They were comfortable with what was happening. R: You were stuck L: but the performer driving in the back seat of this clown R: Ah, nice description L: has the realization that there is no win to be had by saying "Goose" at any point. Like, they're- that- that will just fizzle out and be sad and so how this translates to the clown is that Jane just realizes she doesn't actually know the second half of this game. She is sure there is another half of this game, and she's sure will occur to her at any moment but she doesn't actually know it. So she just keeps going around this circle of tired adults going "Duck, duck, duck, duck, duck.." and the- the tension is slowly mounting, everyone is still amused and happy. There's nobody who's upset. There's nobody who's like "Get this person out of here" but there is a lot of "What on earth does this person think they're doing?" and those tired smiles that say "Do not engage with me, but keep on doing whatever you're doing, that's fine." but I am completely stuck 'cause I cannot find a way out. R: So I remember rescuing you, and I remember walking into a room and not knowing how long you'd been going, but it was cl- I- because we had gotten split up at some point, and watching and you had clearly been at it. Everybody knew what was going on and I'm just watching you go around and I admit I stood in the doorway for a- for a not zero length of time, just watching it go down thinking "This is where you die. This- this- I'm going to watch my friend die here. L: I probably would have too. R: I thought to myself "There's only one out that I can see" and so I walk up to you, and I screamed "Goose!" and I pick you up and throw you over my shoulder and I remember- because we had not been training acrobatics yet L: we had been a little bit. R: I was not in shape. L: No. R: and I remember thinking "And now this is where I die" because I have- I have taken you bodily- it's like there's an energy of bad decision making and it has shifted fully on to me because I have to leave this room now. L: Yes R: With all of you on me, and I am- I am not making a chubby clown joke, I'm making an out of shape clown joke and I turn and I stagger out of the room while you were waving over my shoulder or whatever you're doing L: yeah R: and I remember putting you- getting just around the doorway and putting you down and just L: and I just look at you and I say Both: "Thank you" R: that's what I remember L: Yep R: That's a very- that's- so that's- that's- that's pretty weird. L: It was- it was- it was a day. It was a very enjoyable- R: Oh yeah, they loved us. L: It was a very enjoyable event but it was- it was very strange. L: I think it's worth mentioning, when you tell stories like that, I think it's worth mentioning that when we talk about our clowns having a bad day or having a bad time, the more- the more in it they are, the more- the more things they have to struggle with, the funnier they are and so we will joke about and talk about these things as if they were really- "I had a really bad day, this happened to me, and this happen to me, and I got stuck here and-" but that's usually when the audience is liking us best. It's worth mentioning that, because in my mind it's like "Oh yeah, you- you- almost died there. They were going to kill you." L: Oh yes, which means- I was- which- which is a strong indicator that I was in fact being funny. R: Oh I could tell you were being funny. You just didn't have an exit. L: No, there was no exit. I had- I had- I don't know what would have happened if you hadn't shown up. R: I believe what you've done is you made what's called a 'calculated high risk choice'. L: Yes R: A low risk choice, you do the thing that's funny, punchline, everybody's kinda happy. You made a high risk choice and you got your cheer when you left. L: I did, I did. R: I mean, on one had that's how every show ends, but on the other hand, how tragic to know that your leaving the room is what got applause. That's the punchline to your joke L: *sings* Tadaaaaah R: Sorry. Are you ready for another? Question, I mean, not another room where you have to live or die. L: Yes, I'm ready for another question. R: Oh good. Oh, this is- this is all you. "What is the cup clapping game song? It seems to be well so well known that you didn't even name it or explain it further, but it doesn't mean anything to me." That's the question. L: Interesting, um, I- R: Thinking back, I'm guessing the cup- the- the cup song. L: Oh, I know which song they're talking about for sure, I know what game they're talking about and in- in- in things we did not prepare enough I intended to actually bring a cup along when I addressed this one, but it's- it's a children's game. The song is one from a film but the game, you have a cup and you do a clapping and cup movement rhythm and I'm gonna see if I can explain it. R: Oh, you're going actually try to walk through. L: Yeah, we're going to see if we can walk through it. R: I know you tried to teach me this, and you are a valiant, kind and- you are a patient teacher and I L: And we will- we will find- definitely find a link to a video R: Of you doing it L: Of this- of this rhythm, because it's- R: Can you do it with a shoe? L: I might be able to do it with a shoe. R: Do it with a shoe! I would like to introduce everyone to- who would you? We- We'll go with this one. This is a- a lovely burgundy *sound of hand hitting the bottom of the sneaker* R: high top sneak- or low top sneaker. It's got a bit- of a bit of wear and tear on it, but I've taught many a workshop while wearing them, so L: Alright R: There you go. L: So, I have- I have the shoe R: Okay. Pretend it's a cup is what you're saying. L: I'm going to have to pretend it's a cup. So, you start with your cup upside down on a flat surface. R: As you have done with the shoe in your lap. L: As I've done with the shoe in my lap, and you begin with clapping your hands twice above the cup *claps hands twice* L: and then tapping the top of the cup. So that is- three times. So it's (speaks over the correlating sounds) clap, clap, tap tap tap, clap and then you shift the cup to the side with your right hand. So you're going to grab the cup, which is essentially centered up or even over to your left and you move it to your right. So it goes (again speaking over correlating sounds) clap, clap, tap tap tap, clap, grab move. Which I have not actually done with this cup- I just- I mean, this cup is- this shoe but I R: I'm amazed you got this L: but I made the sound so, R: I'm amazed you got this far, I'm in it. L: and So, grab, move and then you pull *pause* a maneuver. So let me see here. (speaking over correlating sounds) clap, clap, tap tap tap, clap, grab, move. Clap- and then what you do is you grab the cup on it's left side with your right hand so that your thumb is pointing towards the opening of the cup, so the- your thumb is pointing down, you grab the cab, you bring it right side up, you tap the top of the cup, which is the- the open section of the cup. R: Okay L: You tap the bottom of the cup to the ground. R: Yeah L: You left it back up, you hand it off to your left hand, you then slap the ground in front of you, or the- the table space in front of you and set the cup down to your right, or if you're doing it to- for- by yourself, you set it down center, because the way that this game goes when it's played as a group children's game is you will set it down on your far right which will be on the far left of a friend next to you. At which point, you start back over at the beginning, with a (speaking over correlating sounds) Clap, clap, tap tap tap, clap, grab it from your from your left over to your right, so (speaking over correlating sounds) clap, clap, tap tap tap, clap, grab, move. Clap, grab, up slap, down slap, switch hands, slap on the ground, place. Add that is how the rhythm goes. R: I love that you just slapped my shoe to explain this. I love that- this is where we are. L: I have no idea whether that was an explanation that was followe- followable because I have never had to explain it purely through text or voice, I have only ever done it visually. R: You taught this to me L: In real time. R: We were teaching in a little, um, we were teaching in a little improv games workshop and you were like, well we had a few minutes to kill, and you sat me down on the floor and you tried to teach me and all I got to was * the sounds of clap, clap, tap tap tap, clap, clap, fumble* and I've just hit myself with the shoe. L: Someone didn't think that through. R: I didn't think it through. That's why you didn't pick the shoe up. L: That is why I didn't pick the shoe up. R: and I have hit myself in the leg with my own- I have kicked myself technically L: Well done. R: Here's the thing, this still went better then when you tried to teach me this game. L: I believe that. R: I remem- L: I really don't remember anymore, to be perfectly honest. R: I crushed the cup and walked away, I was ver- I remember because I was very frustrated with you. L: It can be a bit frustrating. And it does, it speeds up as you play it. R: Ah, unless, unless- because what I remember, the vision I always have of this is you doing this on stage with a drummer. L: Yes 'cause it speeds up as the children's game but in the version of it that was done for the film 'Pitch Perfect' with a song performed by Anna Kendrick R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Which, I could be wrong about this, but I believe was actually entitled "the cup song" but then is also additionally titled "When I'm gone" R: and you've explained the back history of all of that and your involvement and how it developed into an act previously. L: Which is how we got to this question in the first place. R: Right L: Ah, and- and then you do it with a consistent rhythm because it's the underlying rhythm track for the song. R: And I remember the drummer picked this up in about three seconds, that's what's so- L: I'm not sure that they didn't- the- I'm not sure that he did not know it Both: already R: because, it must have been because what I remember was struggling with this and then you talking in rehearsals and then the drummer goes "Yeah, I got it (as drumming sounds) buhbuhbuhbuhbuh" and I just was very angry again. That's- so, this whole- your success, your great success, which apparently people don't even know what it comes from, apparently it just hits me in the knee and flashes me with rage. L: And I'm sorry about that. R: Oh it's fine L: but I am sorry that we overlooked that it's not- R: it's not- L: quite as common as I had thought. R: You know, you never- you never know what people know. When I- when I teach, I don't- I really tell people quickly, I say "You need to let go of pop culture references" and I'm not busting your chops for developing what I think is a fantastic piece of performance but I tell people, I caution them "If you pick a- a pop culture reference and you assume everybody in your audience knows it, what you've done is you've singled out the person that hasn't absorbed the same culture as you L: Yes R: and if you're going to teach them that bit of culture" -which is why I think your performance works, because on stage it is developed, L: Yes R: "Then it's okay and if it happens to be a thing people get, then they're- they're in on the joke and if not they're sharing with someone but if not, if you just sort of referencing it, assuming everyone has this shared knowledge, you can very quickly end up into a place where you- where you alienate someone." And I don't think this is a L: Oh, very much so. R: I don't think this is a case of someone feeling alienated but they certainly didn't know the heck you were talking about. So you've gotten a useful lesson. L: Yes I have, thank you. R: Yeah L: Unfortunately this is definitely one that I can't just turn around to you, because I have answered it. R: I think- I think my comment about the teaching, I think the fact that- that- when we- we be careful- when we caution each other to be careful about pop culture memes, I think that covers it. I think my- any contribution I can have to it. I think we'll edit this part out and no one will know and it'll be fine. L: Okay R: Yeah, So I think we can just move on L: So, we'll move on, we'll move on to R: Unless you want to make up an answer, Well as you know it was invented by the Hittites during the L: I have no idea how far back it goes. R: The Hittites? L: No, the cups song, cup clapping game. R: Moving on L: You're just so quick to dismiss it. We- R: I L: we could have gone on a whole additional track there. R: I panicked because I thought you were going to dig into the Hittites and pretty much other than the name I have very limited knowledge to offer. L: Oh. Well, I wasn't- I wasn't going to. R: I grabbed a random, like, that's what the- you- you- this is why pop culture can get you or- or repeated things in priming. L: Yes R: So, I had a friend who used to tell a joke that- that lunch is the- someone would say "Explain- explain lunch" because a group of his friends used to always get together and have lunch and he would say "Well lunch was first invented by the Hittites" and they would go off on a- it's just a long tear and it's not a tear I know but I remember the joke, so what's happened is I've painted a quick- quick word painting but if- if you poke at it the- there's nothing. L: It just completely falls apart. R: Because it's not my story and so yeah, crunch and you- you crash and so what happened is yeah, I cut it off short because I was worried that's what you were going to go on about and I was like "Oh no, I don't have anything" it's a good example of the pop culture problem. L: Yes, yes it is. R: Yeah, I have failed in front of L: And I'm- I'm glad- I'm glad we- I'm glad we had that. R: I'm glad we got to fail in front of people, that was nice for me. I'm sweating. Can you tell? L: Well, R: Little bit? L: Yeah, you know, I think it's good for everybody to- to experience that. R: It never- it never gets easier. It becomes more familiar. That's- that's what I always say about- about the idea of crashing and burning. It's not that you ever get to where "Oh, I love that" you go "Oh, you get used to it" L: Yes R: *laughs* L: Yes, you do. R: The minute you think "Wow, this is going really well!" it is no longer going really well. That's the life lesson L: True. All right, I believe we have more questions. Yes, we do. R: We do? L: We do! R: Oh good! L: Here we go. "Is there a clown hierarchy-" (they start playing with pronunciation) R: here- here are key? L: here- R: here archy? L: here- here archy? R: here arky? here archy? (they move on) L: and what is it based on?" R: "Is there a clown hierarchy and what is it based on?" I- I have two immediate responses and- and one is to become a historic ped- pedant and show off a bit of my- my circus history knowledge and the other one is to get really mad at the suggestion that we're- we're, um- where in some way one of us might be better than the other. L: Well then, let's go up there with the- Let's go with the history. R: I'll go with the pedantic history one which will show I'm better than you, because I know more about history. L: Perfect R: As long as you don't say anything historical, in which case you'll blow me out of the water. L: Well, we'll R: So L: We'll see how this goes. R: So, early history of circus, and- and again this is glossing and I'm going to get stuff wrong because it's late at night, but your- your very first circuses in the form that we even understand them, some, you know, some cavalry put a rope on the ground and- and that became the first circus ring and the person in charge stepped out there in their uniform and that was the first ringmaster. So it's a very high status sort of formal thing, but there's horses crapping just off to one side. You have to remember, that is everything you need to know about circus. So somewhere along the way we enter the clowns into this equation. We have a ringmaster, master of ceremonies coming out and, you know, I've played low rent versions of the master of ceremonies and it's great fun but you have, you know, is going and we bring the- this otherworldly creature called the white face clown. Which has painted up like a porcelain doll, usually with a big ruff collar and they've got asymmetrical make up which is one of those little quirks that always made me uncomfortable. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's very- they're alien. L: Yes R: and they're very- they're very overdressed. They're, you know, their costumes are covered in mirrors and rhinestones and joy and gems and they're- they're mocking royalty but they are technically below the ringmaster. L: Okay R: This is- and I'm speaking of historic circus here. Let me be clear. L: Yes R: So you have this person is like the ringmaster says- says " We are here tonight!" and the- the- maybe- maybe the white face clown comes *mumbled noises vaguely like "we are hear tonight"* just making fun of him. L: Yes R: Eventually, and I've heard apocryphal stories about how this happened, you have somebody who seems like a drunk just sort of walks into the ring and mocks the white face clown. L: Oh, okay. R: And this is the Auguste clown. Who's the- the commoner. It- it's not- again these roles blur over time, these were classic roles, these are archetypes, but you have this clown that is just- it is the people, only heightened. L: Yes R: So- So, very clearly you- you now have the ringmaster who is actual royalty in the room, or military the room, then you have someone mocking royalty, and then you have someone mocking commoner to- for the purpose of mocking royalty. So you have this- there's this classic pecking order. L: Okay, yes R: Over time, this is European circus, over time it comes to America and morphs heavily. I think the Auguste clown eventually becomes the tramp clown and also becomes the, you know, the various things that become the American circus clown and the make up fades either up or down L: and I think I've heard- I've heard, character clown R: Yeah, which is L: Which is like, derived from but also runs underneath? R: Yeah it's it's own L: depending on how people are- R: It's it's own thing L: are setting up the pecking order R: And what's what's interesting is that's all very, very performative. Those roles are based on what you're good at playing. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Ultimately, if you're thinking about it in terms of of the clown troupe. L: Yes R: What's interesting about that is that, you know, that- that- that M.C. character, that high status character, may or may not actually be in charge. That has nothing to do with their actual status within the performing company. That is their character's status. L: Oh yeah R: I'm one of the things that's really interesting about that is- is the idea that, you know, you have a company of performers, they're all working together and maybe one of them is directing, but it- my favorite part about having other performers around is the fact that one of the might be smarter than me. I remember I used to work with someone who is a juggler and he played a very sort of ostentatious, pretentious sort of scien- a professor type. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and what the so great about that was, the smarter he got, the more permission I had to be an idiot. L: Oh yeah. R: and so, we get this huge contrast because he can be charming and smarmy and this and I could just be havin' a good time, in that context. I'm still the director of the company, but I'm just bumbling around because we had this performer that was so magnificent at playing this particular persona. L: Yes R: So it- it- it played out like that. So, historically there were roles, I think now what I'm more interested in, when you get to sort of theatrical clown, I'm way more interested in the little- the little status transactions, the little dominance battles for lack of a better word that happen between characters that are, you know, roughly the- both of them are idiots but this idiot is- s- slightly more knows what's going on in this moment and then in a moment are going to trip over themselves and the other one's gonna bumble in and save the day and what's that relationship like? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: 'Cause it's much more- rather than these big, you have, like, you know, royalty on one end and peasant on the other is not very interesting because we know how it goes. If the one end pushes too far it gets beheaded, you know, or- or there's a revolt which, you know, in theater is not very interesting. In histor- L: Or sometimes is. R: It can be. It can be. What I find really interesting is two people who meet who are roughly- if two people are equals onstage then they're jockeying for position. L: Yes, but they're- they're still- you- you can't completely dismiss how satisfying it is to have a character come in who's clearly at the absolute bottom and come into the space of a character who owns everything and have that get flipped on it's head by the end of the scene. You c- I mean, R: Absolutely L: There is nothing, okay, I am sure there's something that satisfying but it is one of those things that is absolutely delightful to see when it's done well. R: When- when the clowns came to America, I think, when you got rid of those rigid roles and we have the- sort of- the presentation is that we can all be anything. That's the- that's the- that's the- L: That's the zeitgeist of America R: The zeit- Right. You have that as a backstory, then when- and I immediately go to Chaplin. The Tramp kicks the feet out of- out from under every one, or Buster Keaton knocking over the police and running away and we love that character because they are now taking on this new role, and an emerging role, which is while they are the bottom of the hierarchy they are flipping the table on it. L: Yes! Yeah, yeah, yeah R: that can happen at the extremes, for the purposes of become big broad comedy? You're absolutely right and I happen to love playing the bottom of that. But what I find is the most satisfying to watch in an engaged way for any length of time, is a character relationship that's really close, L: Oh, there's some amazing things that can happen with that, yeah. R: I know that, like, in the lab, one of the funniest things I have ever seen was, I was running these sorts of character exercises they call them status exercises and I remember giving people- saying "Whoever is- Whoever- whoever is- you're all- you're all equals, but whoever is in the scene the best is going to get the job." you tell them. You- and it's all- it's a set up, it's- they all know that that's not- L: It's a scene. Yeah. R: It's a scene. That's- but you tell them "Okay, one of the seats is slightly better lighting than all the others and you really want the casting director to see you" and watching them fall- they're all equals but they're trying to figure out- decide which one is the best seat and then win it. Or you give them another scene that's the opposite, which is "Okay this is- this is a doctor's office and whichever one of you looks the most miserable is going to be seen first" L: Yes R: and watching them- and while that can get really heavy in the real world, in comedy, watching people fall over themselves and moaning and groaning was very funny. L: Yes R: It also gave them a chance to run in the other direction of status which then you get into playing with flipping tables. You never put two people in a situation who actually have a power disparity. You don't do that in theater without a lot of good framing around it, because you want this- that- you want to be a productive conversation. L: Yes R: That's getting off base of this question. "Are there hierarchies?" historically, yes but like everything, thank heavens, the edges blurred because more interesting things happen. I know that when I've played middle status, and the character always think of is the Host L: yes R: As a- as a variety performer when I was hosting the Open Stage and I had this persona that was based on me but was a heightened version of me, I- I really got excited about mixing status. I wanted to seem like I was really bad at being in charge, or I wanted to be the lucky loser. I wanted to be right in the middle and what we came up with was that the tech theater were in charge, the audience was in charge of everything, and this poor guy stuck between them and it's a war and so he's in this constant battle trying to get the show back on the road, trying to have fun. The- the techs can come out and shut him down, the audience encourages him to get in trouble, you know, and so we- we got to have this sort of bumbling energy. Which ended up playing really well because all of the techs were a part of- they were characters. L: Yes R: They were a part of it and they knew the games. So, you got to play with it but if that character was too bumbling he couldn't have the gravitas to introduce an act and we would have to get rid of that character. L: Yes R: or if he was too authoritarian, well, then the tech theater people had no power and so it was a really interesting time to play with a very intentionally blended character that I don't particularly play now. I tend to be much less in charge of things now. As a L: True R: performer L: True R: as a character. Yeah, so that's interesting. Turning it to you, who was in that room in several roles and all these other rooms I've been talking about, "Is there a clown 'here archy'?" L: Hierarchy R: Why are we having so much fun saying it right? L: because it's much more fun to call it a 'here-archie' R: And the second part which I kind of glossed over, "What is it based on?" Ooo. L: I think you covered the historical R: Yeah L: quite well R: Well as an old fart, that's sort of my move. L: I- I'm gonna go back to some of what you were talking about, about both there being- there oftentimes being somebody who is in the director seat, or the seat of quote unquote "boss clown" R: It's a thing L: Which, that one, is frequently a seniority thing and/or a knowledge based thing. Not always, but frequently it's- it's- it's a who- who knows the acts, who has the- who's coming up with the ideas or who is selecting the ideas R: Thank you for implying I know something. L: You do R: I appreciate it. I'm being honest, I'm being sincere. L: Resident "boss clown" R: I- I didn't ask for their role, I ended up sitting here. L: And- and that person does have- I mean the- we- we refined the title for "boss clown" to "creative director" R: Oh that's only when we're talking to other people though L: And I think it's- it's- that is a good title for it though, because it is- you're the person who's making the final calls on what gets put in a show, what characters go out R: Sure L: together on things R: Some of the- I'm- I'm acting as a facilitator. I- I wanna put it in the- in the- the mix L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that I am not driving people's creative- the I might be encouraging a particular creative impulse but I'm not driving them, I'm not assigning them. I'm not- L: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. R: Yeah 'cause it's not L: It's very much- it's very much, people bring- people bring things to the table and say "Hey, I wanna do this", "I've got this idea", "Can I do this at this next thing?" and for the most part you say "Yes" R: My super power, good and bad, has always been that I know the only thing I can do is say "No" so I'm always looking for a way to say "Yes" because saying "No" sucks. L: So- so sometimes it's "Yes with some refinements" R: Yeah, show me, prove it's gonna work. L: And very much a "show me" but you do tend to say "yes" but I do think it's interesting that as you mentioned, you are really enjoying playing some lower status R: I only get to- L: When your clown is performing R: I only get to do that in recent history, and honestly it's because of you. L: and I am just now, in this conversation, putting two things together about that. R: Oh, do tell. L: I don't know whether this is the case or not but I will ask you whether it's the case. There was a- there was- so the tech in the- in the show with the R: The mid-status L: With that mid-status Host character the all of the tech members were technically above and technically below R: Yeah L: in status with that person because that person was leading the show but also wasn't allowed to touch any of the tech. Like wasn't allowed to touch a microphone, wasn't allowed to- to do any of that. R: The techs where. I wasn't. That was part of the game. L: Exactly you weren't, you were not allowed do that and the techs would tell you off if you- if you tried, and any of the techs had that capability, but they're tended to be one or two, depending on the time frame R: *Affirmative Noise* L: techs, and it was typically the person responsible for the sound board R: The closest- which was, due to the design of our show, the closest performer L: to the stage R: to the stage, correct L: and tended to be that that was the audio tech, so they were also the one most frequently going up on the stage, changing out microphones, changing out sound equipment, and coming up with the clipboard and reminding you were you needed to be. R: They were the one who could, because we didn't have a curtain, they- they were allowed to break that wall. L: Yes R: Yeah L: and if I'm remembering correctly R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I don't believe that there was another clown performer who took that role. R: Well, here's the thing L: They were other performing- I mean like, there are other performers in the troupe that had that role, that is not even a thing I'm questioning at all. R: That role was orig- was originated, it- it came together admittedly organically, we were able to workshop that in the room. We had a- a fantastic audio tech who came on board who also happened to be, and none of us knew it, and I'm not sure he knew it, but he was a fantastic mime. L: Yes R: He never spoke, and so you have this character that's motor-mouthing like a carnival barker at the audience, next to someone who doesn't speak, and instantly what you have is that they have status. L: Yes R: Were there are other performers that became his lackeys? Yes. Were there other performers, once that character changed out that played that status? Yes but they spoke. But I feel like the- the strongest moments in that show were when that character was a contrast against the Host character. So- L: But I can think of- So I was not there near the beginning, R: No. L: So I am missing segments of the history. R: Sure L: but I can think of three people who ended up taking that role. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: The later ones did speak. R: Yes L: but I believe, I being the third person who took that role. Third or fourth? Okay. R: Yeah. L: The third person I can think of. But I would- R: Sure L: I would believe it. This is a- this is missing pieces. R: I'm counting off wait- Well, I'm also thinking about like, are we counting, like, the henchmen level characters? Are we counting- are we counting the side characters- Oh you know what we're not even thinking of, is there was the side characters. L: I'm not talking about the side characters. R: You're just talking about the techs. L: I'm not talking about the side characters, I'm not even talking about- I'm talking about the- the person who is heading sound. R: Okay so, that role. L: That role. R: Which was visible 'tech director' for lack of a better L: Was what appeared to be the 'tech director' even though R: In many cases wasn't. L: In many cases, that was not the case but visibly for the purposes of that show R: Sure L: That character seemed to be the technical director in a lot of ways. R: Did another clown take it? Never. L: Which then puts my clown, later, be the only clown performer with prac- where the performer has practice with you playing a lower status. R: No? Not arguing with you- I'm thinking. I'm thinking. It's been a minute, it's been a minute. L: Yeah, no, 'cause I'm not sure. R: There were- so, you have this high status character moving things around, giving me weird looks, with the clipboard saying "Get on with it" with a gesture. L: Yes R: Who would occasionally, whenever one of the Circus Freaks, had a new clown or new character, that character would likely be- the- the most likely way we could give them visible in a show L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The- the two ways, obviously they would have an act in the show, but the one that would give them the clown opportunities would let them run the microphone onstage. So I think every clown had at some point done a bit of tech for somebody. So L: Okay, I've got that. R: So there was- there was a point where they may not have been that character, that role, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but there are other clowns in the company that had certainly come and given me the business, because L: Okay R: there were- there are entire runs of jokes that were based on them making fun of me L: Okay R: So there's that, and the in the confusion here is that we, additionally had- we had the band leader who was definitely a trained clown L: No question R: Didn't perform as one but was- was definitely trained clown. We had my- my improv teaching partner Johnny in the audience as my second banana character, who was an M.C. in his own right, and one point hosted the show. L: Yep R: So we had all of these pieces, but what I take away from this, sitting here, is the funny thing is you- everybody starts to think "Well, obviously the guy in the hat M.C.ing is the ringmaster" and he was not, and you think "Well then it's the tech director" arguably the tech director character may have been the white face. Sort of the very straight ahead comedy character. L: Yes R: I think the audience had all the- the audience or the other performers, depending on the moment. The mayhem of that show was inverting that relationship because there were moments where the audience- pleasing the audience was king and there were moments where all- we did all of this, the whole purpose of the show was to be a nurture garden for performers that were emerging and some that were traveling through and visiting and L: Yes, yes R: and our own repertory performers but one of the things that was so- was so interesting about it, was that the goal was to give the audience a steam valve. When they needed to go off, I said "Attack me, never-" L: True, yes. R: never heckle a performer in the show" and that was the whole purpose of that character was to act like a fuse for a bad mood, you know. L: True. True, true, true. R: and so I think in many ways the- the stars of the show became the highest status characters. Which I think led to the ca- the feel of that show. So again, it- really moment to moment. Again, when it's done well the hierarchy moves around because if someone's in charge all the time all we want to do is see them trip L: Yeah, fair. R: and if someone's the low status all the time we really want to see them have a moment. I remember a moment where you were in a show and we told you- it was great rehearsal moment. Were it was like, "Okay, Marie's got this act where she's gonna make a mess onstage" and you were like "That's mine to clean up" L: Oh yeah. R: and you ended up doing this thing where you tied rags on your feet you did some ice skating and it was- it worked and- the point was though, it was that low status character, the clown doing a very menial job L: Yes R: had a moment and we really liked that character in that moment. Whether or not it was great for the show or whatever was less important but it gave- we were all feeling like this new, because at the time you were fairly new with a company and you are new to the show, it was really nice to give that character an extra moment where they can be seen, and they had a job. They belong there. They were just wandering around, they belonged there. So the other side of this hierarchy business is having a role meant you have a job to do which means you belong there and there's this feeling that happens when everybody- when you don't wonder "Why is that person in the show?" you go "oh, because they're a company" and you just buy in and I really- I love seeing that in a show when you have a good ensemble. When the ensemble is- is tight everything feels like it make sense. L: Yeah. R: and we've done shows where we've lampooned it. We've- we've had performing members have to audition on stage in the middle of the show, halfway through the show, because they were the newest person. L: Yes R: and that being a whole- a whole wonderful thing because it gave them such a big moment but L: Valid. So okay, so that was a R: That answers your question L: little bit of a tangent because the key thing I was coming back to is that one of the things that we've noticed in a lot of us working together is despite the fact that you are boss clown, R: Says so on the paperwork L: we do tend to do, when the two of us go out, I have been growing more and more into a higher status role and you have been able to go further and further into a lower status role. R: absolutely L: Where I am the incredibly frustrated person trying to try to reel you in and you are the one actively causing mayhem. Well, sometimes actively. Sometimes, arguably, quote unquote "passively", because you know- R: I believe the term you're looking for is "passive aggressively" L: Well, 'cause- 'cause one of the things that- the thing that talking about status and talking about that back and forth, that hierarchy, I think of immediately is the two of us when we go out to juggle. R: Oh yeah. I- I- I love that I don't do much of it. L: Yeah. So, we'll go out and we'll walk around for a while and that will be great and eventually we reach the point where- where people notice we're carrying juggling clubs and they'll- they'll ask us to juggle. R: Seems like a reasonable request L: It does. You know, you see two people walking around with six juggling clubs between them it does- it does make some sense that they might throw those around, and then you- we'll set up. We'll get ready to juggle them, and then you will promptly drop them. R: And here begins a thing that I- I love. Before you get to the bumble, one of the reasons why get to do this is because you're holding the energy of a stage. The more I have something to contrast against the more I can play that. So, point is, you're like "I'm very good at my job" and I go "Yes" and I drop stuff and now I have to pick stuff up and the longer I can authentically keep that going L: Which is called "the bumble" to explain the- R: The bumble L: the word that you just tossed out there. R: Right. So by- by the time I'm dropping stuff- and it is a weird basic skill that I happen to do pretty well. There's- everybody's got some stuff that you get good at. This is something I'm clum- I'm not actually that clumsy but I am- when I need to be, I- I'm a klutz. L: You're very good at it, yes. R: Thank you. And so I'm dropping stuff all over the- I've had people get up out of the audience to come help me. I mean, it becomes a whole thing. L: Oh, small- I've seen small children shove juggling clubs into your arms. R: Into my hands, my arms, yeah. Whatever- whatever they can do but yeah, so I'm- I'm standing there dropping stuff. Sure. L: And- and there- there are arguably many ways that one could play across from that. R: You could tell me to get on with it. L: but one of the things I don't want to do is tell you to get on with it R: Because we lose the laugh. L: because we lose the laugh. The whole point is that we build up- we build that up for as long as it goes because people actually, as it turns out, really enjoy watching one person dropping things consistently and a small child getting so frustrated that they feel the need to literally pick things up and hand them back, because they're having to explain to this adult bodied person- R: I thought you were talking that you were the child in that and I was just very amused. L: No, *stammers* 'cause the thing is, there's almost always a kid involved somewhere. R: It happens L: because they'll tell you that is behind you and then R: you go get it L: you go get it and drop more things and eventually they are up out of their seats R: It's worth mentioning that at some point this all pays off and we juggle. L: We do eventually. R: You can't- you can't go out there and- I mean, maybe you can. And now I really- L: You probably can. R: I want to try. Go out there with juggling clubs and never actually manage it. L: but R: new personal goal L: and as turns out, it's actually very enjoyable to just watch that play out but you can't- you can't just check out, and I can't just sit there wait- like I have to sit there waiting, but I can't just sit there, waiting my turn, waiting- R: No L: to see when I get to juggle because that will deflate it. R: Yeah, you have to be emotionally invested in the outcome. L: So there's plenty of ways one could play that and the way I have tended to, the way that I sort of- naturally drifted towards was getting increasingly agitated? R: Which people find very funny when you do it L: and getting to that exasperation point where you're not quite actually apologizing, but you're doing everything but, while rolling your eyes going "Are we ever doing this?". So there's not- you don't say "Get on with it" because there's no point. R: You know, the- your eye roll, your big comedic eye roll is so good that the first time you did that to me on an event L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I got on with it, because I thought you were- I actually didn't know till later you weren't mad. L: Oh yeah, it was big R: because I was- I was- it was- it was big and it was comedic, everyone's laughing and I actually had a moment where I was like "Woah, I better get on with it" but you- so you got me and that's when I knew that, you know, we- we worked pretty well because you could- you could push back a little. L: Yeah! So- so, you know, one of the things on- on, you know, "what's it based on?" because you've explained, historically, what the clown hierarchy is based on R: Costumes L: and what- what it's based on when it comes to these more nuanced things is a bit of- of "what's the scene?" because- because anybody can play at any status R: Sure and it's best, while there are some you're comfortable in, it's best to- it's best to try 'em all. L: Yes you- you definitely should and when you play around with pairings of people and groupings of people, you will find something that feels very natural and just sort of works and while there's a strong argument for working at- for actively developing the opposite to, you know, just as artistic practice but R: You'll discover things L: but it's definitely worthwhile to dive in and- and do a thing that works, you know, naturally R: Yeah, I think there's- I do- I do think, like in the lab, you should try things because you're going to discover something you didn't know because when we first started playing together you never would have pushed back like that and it wasn't until you found that little piece that really wants it to go a certain way. L: Yes R: and when you found that, you got to be this person- what organically came out of this is you're the person who is like "We're gonna do a thing and it's gonna be great and we're going to do it exactly like this" and I'm the one who can barely tie my own shoes and we get to have that tension of I want it to go well too. I'm as invested as you are but we have one person whose goal is- is to keep it on the rails and another person's goal is to be, you know, running around, clumsy, bumbling and that gives you that anchor that keeps- because you don't always win and I don't always win. L: Yeah cause it's- and- and the thing is R: It keeps that tension L: they both- they both have the same goal R: sure, it's all theater L: Your character is just much worse at making it happen. R: Which is funny, because as a director I am- I am quite the opposite I think. L: Yes R: I think I'm very- I'm very much like that- that rules person. I want it to go a certain way. I will- I- I get and I have to- I have to manage that. When I'm- when I'm workshopping and when we're developing things L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Once we're rehearsing I can be like "Okay, get it right" but before that, I have to really reign that in. So I think it's also a relief to go out and play the opposite to get some practice at bein'- bein' loose. L: Yeah R: because I'm not. L: but it's- it's it is- it is very fun. I have- I have to- there's always- there's always a balance to anything. So there's also figuring out how deeply you dig your heels in. R: and you L: about a thing R: I think you have a pretty good sense of it and thinking over times we've performed where it was really time to get on with it and I was- I was exuberantly in the moment and you were able to dig your heal in and go "Okay, it's time to get on with it" L: Yeah R: and communicate that in a way that worked and I think also, creatively- creatively- creatively it's- it's really funny because creatively were both a bit- we're both a bit- rules oriented. We both- we both want that. Like I said, creati- when we're in the director seats L: Yes R: we're both, when we're giving each other notes, we're really- You'll- you'll tell me if I'm doing the wrong. L: Yeah R: You're not afraid to and I think that's super, I mean, respectfully of course L: of course R: but I think it's super important have that because otherwise, if you don't tell me it's bad, I'll never know. L: Yeah R: So it's- it's nice to have that and then to go out in the field and have someone who's willing to- to give you some tension on the rope when you pull it, it feels so nice. L: And of course, sometimes you absolutely like- yeah, you need that tension on the rope, because otherwise you can't get into trouble. I'm immediately thinking of a moment which I think is probably- which might be the highest tension we have ever gotten to. R: Performing or? L: Performing. R: Do tell. L: of me having to reign you in which was "Donut touch" R: *whispers donut.. *laughs* I can't L: So, R: You're gonna, you're gonna L: I have to explain. R: You're gonna have to explain because L: I don't R: I'm not even sure how we got there. L: I don't know how we got there. R: Okay, I know what the scene looks like. So, the scene was we were at an event that had an art show attached to it L: I was- Yeah, I was gonna explain it. R: Well I gonna give you that much. So there's scul- we're suddenly in an art gallery. Two idiots in an art gallery L: Two idiots in an art gallery, and they come across a piece of, I believe, ceramics R: Beautiful L: absolutely gorgeous of donuts on a plate. R: Intricately sculpted individual donuts on a plate L: Absolutely beautiful, lovely piece of sculpture and directly next to the piece it says very clearly on a card "Do Not Touch" R: and I immediately reach for it because I am a trouble making man child who sees an opportunity L: and R: and I have no idea how you're going to stop me and everything in me thinking- the first time is thinking "Please, I need you to do your job" L: and so I did and I stopped you. I stopped you and you said "But, but, but, but-" and I said "It says right here 'Do Not Touch' R: and this where the power of being dumber than you pays off because by this point we're in a heated debate. We've drawn a crowd. Which was the goal L: Yes R: but the sign, I say "What's the- what's the- what's the bottom line say" you say L: "Touch" R: and I said "and the top one says 'd o n o t' donut. 'Donut Touch'" and I reach for it again and you go "Wait!" and you stop me. L: And I had to stop you, and we went on R: This was not a short moment and we're pulling- like people are pulling in and filming it. It's happening. L: and now I'm in a situation where I have to continually enunciate "Do Not Touch" no matter how many times you say "Donut Touch" R: and reach for it L: and reach for it. Which was so hard R: *laughs* L: because I am simultaneously trying to keep from breaking down with laughter R: it was going well L: because you were being so ridiculous. There's no benefit to touching these. There's absolutely R: No. And- and, to be clear the performer L: We need to not. R: Yeah, the performer does not want to but the mom- L: That's not a boundary we can actually cross and we know it R: and we don't want to, but the moment that's happened is so funny that we're stuck in this loop of 'how far can we go with this?' L: and I don't remember what broke us out of it. I think- I think I just had to, like, drag you off. R: You physically L: Had to physically, like, grab you by the ears, or the- the sideburns probably. R: You slap my hands away from the table over and over and it kept escalating, I kept reaching, we kept going through this little ritual game and then finally you reached over and grabbed me by the sideburn. L: Yes R: My big fuzzy sideburn and- which is a- which is a slapstick gag and why you keep these things in your back pocket. L: Yes R: So I immediately, as a performer, know "Okay, my job now is to play along" I take, you know, I get pulled by my side burns and as we turn and you pull me out the door, we go out backwards, and we wave goodbye to everybody, and we walk out of the room, and we win. L: yes R: but yeah, we had to go backstage and laugh it off. L: Yeah, we did. We had to- we had- we knew we were- we had- we had to leave because there was no- there was- there was nowhere else to go. R: That was pretty- what's funny about that is that was pretty early- that particular dynamic was probably the first time it really went there L: I think it was- that was when we went there the hardest, I think R: and I think- I think was when we figured out "Oh L: "We really can go there" yes, R: "We- we can have some fun with it" over something really stupid. L: because we had been doing it with the juggling for a while. R: Sure, but this was- this was nice to break it out of that. L: Yeah R: So yeah, so hierarchy or here- here archie L: yes R: there archie. Archie is done L: Okay I believe R: Do- L: the next question is yours. R: Is it? L: I think so R: I read- I read to you? L: 'cause I read to you and you read that one back to me. R: So this one is you L: So this one's you reading it to me R: Are you sure? L: Pretty sure yes. R: You wanna Ro-Sham-Bo for it? L: Sure R: Okay here we go L: One second, let me roll up my sleeves. R: Here we go the classic art of all decision making. Rock Paper Scissors. L: Rock Paper Scissors and then we go on shoot. R: Yeah, yeah, yeah like standard. Don't mix it up now. We've been doing this for a while. *the slapping sounds of a game of rock paper scissors* R: Dang * another set of four slaps * R: *grunts* * another set of four slaps * * pause* * another set of four slaps * R: Well L: I win R: He wins. So does that mean I read to you? I guess L: That- Yes that means you read to me. R: Okay, that was absurd. I enjoyed it. L: So did I. R: I like that we have- we have an audio based thing where we just played rock paper scissors. L: I do too. R: I also like that the later at night it gets, the more likely these questions- these questions have a bit of a stumble to them. "Heat safety in large volume clothing. Also how?" L: "Heat safety in large volume clothing. Also how?" Um, yes. R: Good answer L: Heat safety is something you do have to really pay attention to. Particularly in large volume clothing. It is not uncommon for us to have many, many layers. *rustling noises* L: And R: As you move my layers L: As I'm moving all of layers around. And we are in Texas, so very high heat situations are pretty common for us. So there's a range of things we do in order to prepare for that and in order to make it through that. One of the first things we definitely do is we make sure we heat train and what that looks like for us, is when the weather starts getting warm, we start making a point to go outside in the warm weather and initially that is just spending time outside. As we become acclimatized to the heat, that includes more and more strenuous activities. Training, doing the things that we typically do, but outside in the heat. In order to do that safely, you need to hydrate. You hydrate, hydrate, hydrate and that means not just water but water and electrolytes and salt and little bit of something sweet to actually get your body to absorb all of that. R: Oh, there's a- there is a point where your body will no longer have water stick to it. You'll just sweat it right back out. It's bad. L: And so you wanna make sure that you are, you have a reasonable electrolyte balance in our case, sometimes that is us using there's many different brands of, like, electrolyte tabs which don't have a lot of sugar but have just enough so that you can get that absorption that you need. Sometimes that is us coming in for a vinegar beverage. We like having some seltzer with vinegar and the little bit of salt. R: When you're feeling fancy L: Sometimes it means just salt in your water. R: I remember being up the side of a- being up the side of a mountain being told "salt your water so you keep it" L: yep R: and then, I took that advice very seriously. L: So through a mix of all of those, you also need to make sure that you are in fact getting the caloric intake you need because it's easy to underestimate how much your body's burning when it's also dealing with cooling. R: Oh yeah L: So that's important. Taking breaks, when you need it, both when we're training and then when- on the day, when you're working. You gotta take breaks and we'll- we make sure that that's something that anybody who hires us is fully aware R: Oh yeah L: that we will be doing because it's a non negotiable. R: I like how emphatic you're getting, as technical director, like a lot of these things are your- is your job both to document and to- to enforce. L: yeah R: I like the you- I like that you're *slaps hand three times* going down the list. L: Yeah. So it's- so- so we got that and you know, contrary to what one might think, having more layers, if they're the right layers R: I was gonna say L: can actually help keep you cooler and/or more effectively moderated in your temperature because it's not necessarily going to be completely cooler but so long as you have a sweat wicking layer at your base having additional layers on top of that, I mean it will warm you, but it- it doesn't necessarily make as drastic of an impact as you might think. If you've done it well. R: Oh yeah, cost- costume design is part design for aesthetics and a lot of function, and some of that function for better or worse is keeping you, you know, making sure what layers need to breathe L: *Affirmative Noise* R: What layers don't. What layers can be in the sun. What layers can get wet. L: How many extra layers do you need to take with you for a gig of what length of time, because one of the things when you're doing something that isn't a stage show, when you're doing something that is an ongoing performance over the course of an event where your characters are running around that can be many, many hours on. R: Now, you're going- in between, you're going back, hopefully, to an air conditioned dressing room and cooling back off L: Exactly R: or hanging your upper body in a freezer. Which I have actually done once L: Yes and I- and I was about to get to that and you- you have to make sure that you are running that as the endurance sport that it is. You have to do the prep work of really having put in the time. You have to- you can't only ever work for a half hour at a go and then go take four, six, eight hour long gig. You won't- you won't make it. You'll think you're gonna be okay and by the end of it you will be absolutely destroyed, and the goal is to only be moderately destroyed by the end of- by the end of a long gig. Unfortunately, one of the realities of being on a long gig is you have- you have to hydrate, but you have to not over hydrate because you have to be able to keep going out and doing your thing because having to R: the pee curve L: run- yeah R: the pee curve is a L: The pee curve is a real thing. R: is a L: Having to run of the restroom all the time is not a thing you can do. So you have to make sure that you hydrate but you also have to not over hydrate while you're on the gig. However, we strongly encourage a high salt meal directly after your gig with R: Eat the carbs L: Eat all the carbs. Drink all the water, like, over hydrate the day before, over hydrate the night after and the day after because you are going to dry out during the gig. R: Sure L: that's just a reality of a long gig. R: and those- and those speak, I think, to to we're- we're talking about extreme heat. I mean obviously, different gigs vary. I- Every performer who has worked outside, which all variety performers, I think, have at this point, there is- you've got your horr- I've got a couple of horror stories, everybody's got a couple a horror stories. L: Oh of course. I'm talking- I- I am doing a- an initial point of talking about what your goals are and what the optimal things are to- to prepare, because you can definitely then open it up to what the realities end up looking like and that is sometimes far and away different. Which is why you end up in situations like you were mentioning of hanging your body in a freezer R: Hey it worked L: I'm not saying it didn't work. I'm saying that is- that is an extreme and that is having to figure out a way to cope R: Sure L: despite the fact that there isn't what you might have hoped there would be when it comes to spaces to cool or to- to deal with stuff. R: If you ever want- you ever want to see a grate- a grateful performer, give them a good backstage because there have been so many times on the way on this journey where are, you know, you end up changing in a public restroom, in a bathroom stall, with a cardboard box or- or a rubbermaid tub and you've got- you're out back behind a building quickly changing your undershirt and trying to towel yourself off for another round of performing because that's what they gave you and that's what they had to give you and I- it's not about being ungrateful. It's about figuring out how to manage those realities L: Yes R: There are- there are upper and under limits to what you get from those results. On the handful of gigs I've been given cushy back spaces it's lovely but you have- you have forgotten I'll wait till it comes around me, but you have forgotten a critical component of the planning process. L: What have I forgotten? R: Oh, I'll wait till it comes around to me L: Okay R: and then I'll share my wisdom. L: I was- I was going to jump back before- before- Now I'm second guessing everything. R: Don't, no, no, no. You're doing great L: but that- that's addressing the high heat for long- long gigs that are outdoors. It is worth remembering that stage lighting R: Gets hot L: gets very hot R: Yeah L: So, while you're dealing with- while you are often, not always, often dealing with smaller lengths of time, you are dealing with high heat, you are dealing with intense lighting, and you do have to make sure that you're prepared for that. That is, you know, it's the same stuff. You have to take care of your body and your body needs to be hydrated and your body needs to have salt in it so that it can hold that hydration and you've- you've gotta be prepared for it. You have to have practiced for it but the body adapts surprisingly well to being able to do those things. So you definitely can prepare to do it for whatever situation is going to come up and you can find a way around it but you also need to be very aware of yourself. Like, if you are on- if you find yourself on a gig where you don't have a cool enough back space you do have to keep alert to your own body because, I mean, avoid if you absolutely can but if you have to go and find- if you have to go back out to your car in order to turn the air conditioning on for five minutes to blast your face because otherwise you're going to pass out you need to go do that because your physical safety matters more than somebody being frustrated with the fact that you had to walk out of a space. R: Well there's nothing more frustrating L: to degrees R: There's nothing more frustrating than a performer that's fainted on site. L: Exactly. R: So you don't want that L: that's the thing- that's the thing that you're preventing even if they get- even if you end up dealing with somebody getting miffed with you about it. R: I've taught performers this stuff and what's funny is- and I- and I helped you learn it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And what I think is so funny about it is that we've been on event sites and we have whole kits of stuff that we bring with us to- to manage L: Yes R: and I have seen people go out and we have rescued some performers that got overheated because they had no idea how hot or they got caught out in the sun L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I've- I've also been in places where I've had dressing rooms that the- the air conditioning wasn't there at all and so by the time the heat of the day came while it was a hundred and seven outside it was cooler than it was was in our dressing room. That's a rough day. L: That's a rough day R: Yeah, and so- that's not every day. That's record setting temperatures. I've also had it where I was given big air conditioned ballrooms to change in, you know, it's fine L: Yeah, it totally, totally varies R: You never- you never know. So you try to plan for everything but you still managed to miss the most useful heat management tip I have for you. L: All right, well then, let me ask you R: *Affirmative Noise* L: "Heat safety in large volume clothing, also how?" R: Well the how comes from understanding your environment. L: Okay R: So, one of the lovely things I've gotten to do is perform for cities and I was- I was at a state fairgrounds performing a- performing a- a big show L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And we were doing walk around stuff and I was out- I have a miniature penny farthing bicycle and I was out riding the bicycle and the rain hit and so I went under an awning with a bunch of people and I just kind of kept them company. We're all looking out at the rain going "Yup, it's wet" and by this point I'd gotten pretty saturated and I knew I was gonna have to go back and do- and do a costume change. L: Okay R: but everyone else around me was wet so it kind of didn't matter because we all knew it was wet L: Yeah that it had been raining R: It had been raining. So, lovely because I'm now twenty degrees cooler and it's lovely and I think to myself "This is going pretty well" I get everything done, I start and I get on the bike, the grounds dried up, the sun's come out, and now it's beautiful out. And I start riding back, but the problem is, as I'm riding back it goes from "Yeah, we're all rained on together" to some people are wet and some people are not and if you get close to me you notice I am damp. L: Yes R: and I'm like "That's not a good look. When everybody's wet, that's a fine look" and I'm starting to think about, I'm like, "What am I gonna do?" I should probably just head back and then I spot it. In the middle, just off to the side, in the middle of the- the- the sort of the common space of this fairground, there's a fountain and these kids are playing in the fountain and then the fountain goes up the fountain goes down and the kids run around and they run out of the way and then the fountain goes up, the fountain goes down. I'm counting, I count it off and think I have just enough time. So I go for it and I ride the bicycle to center of the fountain, just as it cuts off. I take off my hat and I gesture out both arms and I say "Hello everybody!" on the fountain goes off and the fountain shoots up one pants leg and out my left arm L: Oooh R: I mean, it just blows me in the air. It's- it's- it's a lot and it was, to be fair, I was now very cool but it was more than I expected because it was like having a fire hose turn on me of icy cold water. L: Oooooh R: Now, everyone knew why I was wet now. L: Yes R: 'cause they're all laughing, the fountain turns off and all I do is I just adopt a very honest expression of just sort of startled, because the startle, what they don't know is that if it weren't for the bicycle seat under me it would have been a very extreme experience. L: Oooh. R: As it was, it was a lot. So, I just get off the bike and I start walking away and as I'm walking I'm wearing clown shoes and they're hitting the ground and are going squish and leaving big wet sopping footpri- I am- I have had a fire hose worth of water ta- taken to me. I- I'm soaking and it is now beautifully sunny out, I turn a corner and nobody knows why. So all they see is they see a- what was formerly a well dressed clown, soaked to the bone L: Not- not- not just slightly damp anymore R: Right. With this blank expression and what they're- when they asked "Are you okay?" I go "I got wet." and there's a funny sort of worriedness about it but I'm just trying to- at this point I've made a mistake but again, I'm much cooler than I was when I was complaining about the heat earlier that day L: *laughs* R: and I finally- by the time I make it backstage I'm actually shivering and I'm just- I'm just- I get back stage and then I remember our backstage was tiled, we have stilt walkers, I can't walk in there until I'm dry and so I hit the doorway and there's a room full of our performers changing and doing things and I just like L: You looked so- R: I looked like a drowned rat L: pathetic. R: I looked like a drowned rat, I took my hat off, I said "Does anyone have a towel?" and I get the- I get the laugh from my own people. Which, you know, that's pathetic but I get in. I get dried off. I change, and honestly I change and I go back out again because I had something else to work with. So the reality I was getting at is sometimes knowing your environment. If everyone's wet, it's not weird that you've gotten wet. If you find a freezer, yeah, you arrange "Hey do you mind if I just stick my upper body in there for a second cool off?" I think being in- being aware of yourself and being aware- but being aware of your environment and then for me, there's comedic opportunities that can come. You put yourself in a bad situation and people will laugh and that's good. L: Oh yeah. R: And again, now it was nice and cool. L: *laughs* R: So that's my- my other tip for you about how to stay cool, is to find a fountain and- and stand in it, while wearing a- while wearing a wool suit on a bicycle. It- it looks good. It's a little sloshy on the socks. L: It did not, in fact, ruin your clown shoes R: It did not. L: if I remember it correctly R: No, no, I took them home and dried them out. Everything was okay L: Alright R: I don't recommend it as a life practice, but it worked that day. L: *laughs* R: Well there you go. I've answered the question. L: Fantastic. In that case, I believe we are our final question for R: Are we really? L: today R: Are we really? L: Yes R: The time just flew by. L: So our final question R: *Affirmative Noise* L: for today R: yeah L: is "What do clowns have in common with penguins?" R: With penguins? L: Yes R: Oh, so many things! We both are snappy dressers, let's face it, the penguin formal suit. L: True R: As I've already outlined, we both at times end up sopping wet. L: Also true, although penguins do repel water particularly well. R: We do differ at our level of water permeability, but we do both apparently like the water. L: Yes R: Yes, we both- funny walks. L: Yes, in fact, I think it is fair to say, not just funny walks but it is not uncommon for people to look at a clown and ask whether that being has knees in much the same way as they do about penguins. R: Penguins do have knees. L: Yes, so do clowns. R: You do, I'm an older clown *laughs* L: but no, it's not uncommon for there to be costuming choices that completely make it so you can't even tell- R: You're talking about L: -what sort of amorphous blob creature- R: Baggy trousers are my jam. L: Yes R: Yes, I hear you loud and clear. Yes, we both- we both- we both have something hiding our knees. I thought you were gonna make a rotundness joke. L: Oh no, no, no, no. I mean, yes, penguins do accomplish that same thing- that same feat with fat but, no, I was talking about costuming choices. R: Oh costuming choices, yeah well yes that's snappy dresser, snappy dresser. Big feet. Big feet. L: Yes R: big feet L: big feet R: big feet L: Strange noses R: Strange noses! You're right. Yeah, keep jumping in and helping me here. There's quite a list. L: Well, because otherwise you'll use all the good ones R: I'll use all- yeah, this way you get credit L: and then you'll turn around and ask me and I'll say "You've said them all" R: A variety of hairstyles. Have you seen some plumage on some penguins? They do have a L: It's true R: yeah L: Both clowns and penguins come in a variety of sizes. R: Also true, I found out that some penguins are far larger than I realized and now I'm freaked out because some of them are like, the size of people. Short people but people. L: True, yeah, R: They're big L: They can get quite big. They can also be very very small. R: That's true, that's true. L: I don't know that I've ever seen a clown as small as the smallest penguin that I have seen. R: What's the smallest penguin you've seen? L: Well, not live, I've only seen them over video R: Well L: There are incredibly tiny penguins that live in, I want to say, off the coast of Australia that are, like, the smallest penguins in existence. R: Oh, wow. L: Yeah R: Nice L: that- that- they're- they're very, very cute. R: Little fuzzy things? L: Yeah R: Oh yeah. I know what you're talking about. You know what I love about those? Something that- I mean, I like a good support animal. L: Support animals are important. R: I'm- I'm wary of having having puppies and children in a show because that's where the attention goes L: That's one of the rules, yeah. R: Yeah, you don't want that, but I often will have like a little stuffed elephant in my pocket or something. Sure I like a little- that's my buddy or a little toy lion, or a giraffe sure that's fine. L: You're thinking about the protective puppies. R: Protective puppies. Okay, I'm going to put a link to this. L: Okay R: because one of the most wholesome things I have ever seen is that there is a breed of dog that protects- is the stalwart defender of a bree- this breed of penguins you are talking about. L: Yes because they were being- they were being hunted at their breeding grounds, they really only have one, R: Right L: by foxes R: Right. So that part's less awesome but the awesome part is that puppies defending baby penguins L: is a thing and it's adorable and R: yes L: is a very heartwarming thing to- to- to hear about. R: Yes it has nothing to do with clowns other than the fact that we like adorable fuzzy animals when we get stressed. I do notice that, every time we get stressed we go watch videos of puppies, of penguins, of Both: otters R: Yeah. Give me a good cute animal to make me- yeah I'm okay. Yeah L: Yes R: that's a nice thing. Are there any other- any other ways? L: Any other things clowns and penguins have in common? For many, though probably not all, a deep love of free software. R: Oh that's funny with a penguin. Yeah, okay L: Yeah R: Nicely done. Nicely done. Okay a little shout out to Tux. L: Yes, R: Okay, okay. L: a little shout out to Tux R: You did it. You got there. I think we got 'em all. There are no other ways which they are- they have anything in common and if I'm wrong, tell me. Send us a note. Along with that, send us questions, because we're L: Yes, please do. R: We're still churning through them, we're still having fun and we're still- we're still doing the thing. Yeah L: Yes, very much so. R: Very much so, but I do- I do think, by the- by the time we're- we're just in- we're just about to release the first episode about the time that this one is being recorded. We're getting real close. L: Yeah, we're about to, yeah. R: We're about to. So- I'm- right now the fever pitch is on. So, by the time you hear this, you'll have had time to take in a few and maybe you'll have some questions. Maybe you'll want to say "What are you doing?" I don't think- L: "Get on with it" R: "Get on with it" Yeah, we'll get that postcard at long last. I'll frame it, I swear. L: *laughs* R: but in the meantime, I think we've made it through another if that's the end of the cards L: I believe so. That is, um yes. I'm back to the top. R: You're back to the top. Well, that's how it works. A stack of cards works that way. L: Yes, so long as you put the top on the bottom when you're done with them. R: Are you- are you stack-s'planin' to me? L: I might be a little bit, yes. R: This is an excellent example of that sort of mixed status problem, we continue to have. Right here on L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Now, theme song. *door opens* *theme song plays*