----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 14 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2023-01-29 ----------------------------------- *door slams* Russ: Satisfying door slam Liam: And now it will say "door slams" and then you saying "Satisfying door slam" R: and then it will say L: On the transcript R: you saying "Satisfying door slam" that I said- this got a little strange L: It's gotten a little bit meta, very right off the bat. R: Yeah, the problem is you got meta right off the bat. I think you need to wait before you wander into such deep and philosophical waters. L: Oh probably. *silent pause* L: But I didn't. So, R: Not at all. Not at all. L: So we're here now. R: We are and I'd like to say it is a cold day here on our recording session because this is the first episode of the podcast that we've recorded during the daylight hours. L: Because we've changed R: Our schedule L: Into daylight people. R: Now, if you're a member of the night time crew I'd like to point out that we're still here for you because that's how recordings work. L: Yes R: but we are now up during the day and it is breaking our brains a little bit because we had been on the night crew for several years L: And there appears to be a flaming ball hanging in the sky. R: Don't scare people. Don't scare- they may not know about the flaming ball. Oh, they're day people, they probably do know about flaming ball. Well, night time people, there's a flaming ball but don't worry about it you're not gonna see it. L: Yeah. R: But we're here to report on all the flaming ball news right here on L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: I can't believe we came out of a flaming ball of- of- of- of stuff in the sky into the name of our podcast. L: Plasma R: Plasma, is that the scientific term for the ball of fire? L: It is a- the scientific term for what the ball of fire is made of, yes. R: Well, you learn something new everyday right here on our podcast. L: Yes R: You don't need to do it twice. I think we're- I think people know where they are by now. L: That they're on "Two Clowns in a Closet"? R: Were you being subtle? L: I put the B in subtle. R: No, that's the grade you got. *laughs* L: It still passes. R: You did- it did- No, you- you did well. You did well. Well, we're here. We're warmed up. We're in the closet. It's the daylight hours and I think we're about to get into it. L: It does seem like we are about to get into it with a minimum of faffing about. R: Do we need to faff about some more? Or- I feel under-faffed. Do you feel under-faffed? L: I do feel just a little bit under-faffed. Which why I commented on it. R: A skosh, under-faffed. L: Mukesekele R: The what L: Eine Mukesekele R: The w- the muke-a what? L: So this is a Schwaebish word. R: Okay L: Mukesekele, and it means a little bit. Like, that's what it's used for. It's used to mean just a skotsh, a tad, a bit. R: Okay L: Its literal translation, is- like most to German words, cause is Schwaebish is a German dialect, like most German words it is a compound word. A Muk is a gnat or a mosquito. R: Okay L: -le is a diminutive ending and sek means sack. R: *laughs* L: So it literally means the tiny sack on a gnat. R: I have a new favorite German word. L: So that is how, in Schwaebish, you say a small amount. R: So if I said "Would you like some- some milk with your tea?" You'd say L: "Ein Mukesekele, bitte." yeah. R: Wow. Wow, I have a new favorite German word. L: It's fun. R: Well, you know, you were worried about a lack of faffing about but you've just given a vocabulary lesson. I think we're- I think we're already heading in a good direction. L: It seems that way, maybe we're ready to start with the questions. R: Just dive in. L: I think- I think at this point it's no longer just diving in, because we've faffed about. R: Oh L: So now we're meandering towards R: The post faff meandering, yes. L: Yes. R: Yes, I'm quite a fan of the post faff meandering. I like a Mukesekele of it before we get into it. L: It's lovely how you just slid that right in there. R: Well, you know, if you don't use a word, you don't learn it. L: True R: As I've heard a Mukesekele number of times. L: That is not how it's used. Good try. R: It's new for me, L: I know, R: it's new. L: I'm just of saying- I'm saying R: Gaaaahhh L: You can't just say it when you say a small number of times, you don't- because it isn't a number. R: It's, no, I know exactly what it is, you described it. L: It's an amount. R: You don't need to go again. L: It's a size. R: It's a size, so in my Mukesekele knowledge of German, Correct? L: Ish. R: Ich bin not very good at this? L: Now, see that was better. R: And I snap the cards out of your hand and I'm prepared to read the questions because I have won the day. Welcome to all of our listeners. I wanna say thank you for joining us, it's a fun time. We've been getting- we just did an ask for more questions and we got some amazing feedback and I just wanted to take a quick second to say thank you for that before we dove in because- L: Yeah, it's really amazing. R: it was really L: We've got some great questions coming up. R: We- we- we got stuff coming up. The- the back half of the season is gonna be *silence* R: You know, you do a chef's kiss without making a noise and it's just you touched your face on the radio. It's worthless. L: True. R: You got- L: And yet you did it. R: and yet I did. This is what happens when you let physical theater people on the radio. Even after a season and a half. L: Doesn't matter R: We're still just making weird arm gestures we have to document for posterity but L: He says, holding a finger up R: Thank you L: I'm not gonna tell them which finger R: I'm holding a different finger up now. *silence* R: Are- you ready? L: I am. Are you? R: I'm- I am ready. I have meandered post-faffingly and I have been sitting here for a L: Mukesekele R: And I am totally really, ready to get into this rather than having this finger gesturing conversation. Which leads us to the first question of our podcast episode. "Which Shakespeare (or Bacon as it were) play is your favorite?" Also I love that they included the Bacon bit. It's very clever. L: Bacon bits? R: Well, they're delicious but L: they smell so good. R: The accusation that most of Shakespeare's work was written by Francis Bacon. L: Ah well, I don't know that much but about that but R: The amount of bacon you used to eat, I would figure you did. L: You would think and yet R: but you're vegetarian now. Who knows. L: But on the question R: Oh, oh there was a question I almost forgot. Yes which play is your favorite? L: Unfortunately, I have a very limited amount of Shakes- full Shakespeare plays I've witnessed. R: Good clown, bad theater student. L: In school, we studied "Romeo and Juliet" I studied "Othello" and that was about it for the Shakespeare and I don't think that give me a wide enough sampling to really make a- a solid choice. However, when I was in high school, a friend of mine had a DVD of a play that I adored, and it was called "The Complete Works of William Shakespeare, Abridged." by the Reduced Shakespeare Company R: I know the- you introduced me to this. It's hilarious. L: It is a three performer show, in that particular case that was a three man show in which they covered every work that William Shakespeare wrote. Including the sonnets. R: Wow, yeah. L: In an hour and a half. Three men, an hour and a half, all of Shakespeare. R: It was- it was a fun ride. I won't say it's- I won't say it's accurate to even- even the ne- I think they even spell Shakespeare wrong, but it was a good ride. L: It's, as one might expect, extremely abridged. It is a delightful show. From what I have heard, last time I looked and it was a couple of years ago, a few years ago, last time I looked, they actually had re-staged it and remounted the show. R: Oh L: So, there was a different set of performers. I think it's got at least one of the original cast, but a different set of performers, and they've brought it up to date, because the show did have a significant amount of very, timely jokes and asides that, if you, like, weren't alive at the time that it was performed, you would have no idea what they were talking about. R: Not everything ages well. L: So they've brought it more up to date and they are still performing it, R: Wow L: last I heard. R: Well it's- it's neat to see that they took it and kept it alive. That's really great. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Okay, you wanna turn this- you wanna turn this closet around and read that to me? L: Yes. "Which Shakespeare (or Bacon, as it were) play is your favorite?" R: Well, I- I get in trouble twice here. L: Okay R: First of all, I have this weird relationship with Shakespeare because I understand, ultimately, that Shakespeare was writing for the people. L: Yes R: I mean it was- it was- Quentin Tarantino not, you know, not Auteur films. It was, you know, if you look at in a modern sense. It was definitely, you know, street theater in a lot of ways, just elevated slightly and so L: Which is why "Romeo plus Juliet" is such a good R: It's wonderful L: representation R: It's the only one where Mercutio ever made sense in because they made him high. L: Yeah R: Yeah, it's the only one. But the point I'm trying to- I'm trying to get to this. So, you have this thing where people in the arts elevate Shakespeare to this absurd sort of deific degree and I got that in my face much more early than I got a lot of Shakespeare in my face and it put kind of- it just kind of put a weird- a weird feeling over the absorption of all of it, you know, because I was always reading it through like "This is important". Which, the minute you tell someone something is important, they stop having fun. Which- which really damaged it and ultimately I never really became an enormous fan, while I was studying theater, I never became an enormous fan of Shakespeare. Which of course put you at odds of all the theater people, which may be how I ended up in his closet. But on the flip side of that, I've gotten to make fun of Shakespeare a shocking number of times. I've done variety shows where we- we lampooned it. We've done- we've done acts where we- we- we played with it because they are so universal themes. So the first place I get in trouble is because I will dunk on Shakespeare without hesitation because it was really simple plots that had been redone forever and probably redone before that and L: It's really simple plots and then a bunch of sexual innuendoes R: yeah L: and then fight scenes. R: Right. What else could you ask for in entertainment if you're thinking about, you know, entertainment where the popcorn goes in the mouth without interruption but if you're looking at high art? Yeah, it's a different thing. Now, that said, the other place I get in trouble is the minute anyone comes after me about "Well, what's your favorite Shakespeare?" they're expecting me to name a comedy and I don't. My favorite would probably be "Hamlet" and the reason why I like "Hamlet" probably, as a scene stealing monster myself, I like that Hamlet gets to chew a lot of scenery and there's this- there's this essential question of Hamlet as a character, which is "Is Hamlet- has Hamlet lost his mind or is he playing a very advanced psychological game of- of political intrigue?" and varying degrees of both are often the- the modern interpretation and I think it's- it's really interesting to have a story that works L: Either way? R: Not just either way but it is vibrant in totally different ways depending on how you interpret the specific point and it's a really- I'm talking about a very beginner point of theater. I know I sound like I'm being very lofty about it but it's- it's one of those like "This is the concept of subtext, here is subtext 101. Was- What was going on in this characters head? Were they hallucinating or lying about it?" It's a pretty early on idea but it really- it really got me and so I like seeing portrayals of that and we were on tour teaching, as I recall, and we were teaching at a theater and we got invited to see a show in- and I thought of this because you said Reduced Shakespeare , three performers. I got to see, with you, a production of "Hamlet" that was called "One Ham Manlet" and it was a one person performance of "Hamlet". Now it was hilarious, but the presentation of the text was done one hundred percent seriously but the shenanigans you have to simultaneously go through in order to do that as a one man show unabridged, is- L: was hilarious R: Fight scenes, death scenes, ghosts, everything! Running back and forth across the stage changing costumes and it further cemented my love of this and also the fact that you can take something that is fairly dire and just by re-contextualizing it, make it hilarious and this sort of cemented I think, "Hamlet" is my- is my favorite. I've studied other- other works with more depth but I- I think I'm gonna go- I think I'm gonna go on that one. L: All right. Well, that's a- that's a solid R: Was it solid? L: a solid answer. R: Okay, well thank you, thank you. L: A solid answer. All right. So, we move on to the next question and the next question has a little bit of R: it's a L: preamble R: you've actually written on both sides of the card L: I have written on both sides the card here and I was very excited to receive this question. R: Why were you excited receive the question? L: because I have been hoping to talk about this for a while. R: Oh and without a prompt it's hard to start a topic. Isn't it? L: Particularly here, where what we do is answer people's questions. R: Right, the format of the show breaks if we just get a wild hair to talk about something. We're sort of dependant on you, dear listener. L: So please do keep sending questions. R: and get them- yeah, make them good, like you have. L: Make them anything, they will be good. R: Like you have. So you have this- you have this L: So I have this question R: and it's this long rambling question. L: and it- it's not that it is a long rambling question R: It's the longest question I think we're received because I've never seen writing on the back of the card. Am I selling it too much? L: I have, in the past, distilled a few people's statements down to the question that they asked, because often people lead with a preamble. R: Okay L: This requires the preamble R: Oh. This is a context sensitive question. L: It is a context sensitive question. R: All right, let's- let's have it. L: So here we go. "We are plural, which means that one of us is fronting. Sometimes we switch without planning and four of us go 'Nope, that's your job' mostly it's fine and the person most appropriate for the situation is fronting but sometimes it can be odd or lead to strange interactions. It strikes us, there is a little similarity with clowns, there is the person fronting until performance then it is the clown. So the question would be 'Is there any situation where when not actually performing, when your clown has gone 'I got this' and taken over unprompted?'" R: Oh, so big- big topic and we I know from- from our work, we both have a lot to talk about here. I do feel like we should probably do some- some content warning. L: So to explain really quickly R: Yeah L: Because, they've mentioned what this is but they haven't defined it. For anyone unfamiliar- unfamiliar with plurality, a couple of diagnostic phrases you may have heard are 'multiple personality' R: Which is a very dated term. L: Which is a very dated term. I'm just trying to make sure that I'm pulling people in. Really quickly, on connecting dots. Another medicalized term is D.I.D. or 'Dissociative Identity Disorder'. Saying 'plural' does not mean that somebody is diagnosed with anything, to be clear, but it does mean there are multiple personalities or people or entities, alters is a typical word used I've heard frequently, inhabiting the same body. So multiple, fully fleshed out, people in one body. That's the quick summary. R: Okay, and if for some reason this- this- I know there's a lot of sensitive stuff here, and I think it's important to point out that we are the theater practitioners. We're not therapists. We're not doctors. We're not psychologists. If we get something wrong please tell us so we can learn and also if this is a topic that's difficult, I will put a time stamp in the show notes when we move onto the next question, so you can check that and fast forward. That way everyone is- is here and we're discussing a comparison of our experience versus someone else's. Well as compared to, L: Yes R: not versus L: and as is always the case, we also do have transcripts R: Good point. L: So if it is easier to read about a topic for you then it is to listen and that is an easier way for you to- to listen to our opinion that's also available. R: I think we've made it roughly safe for people. L: I think so. R: I think so, if we get it wrong and there's way we can do it better I'm going to say, please tell us. L: Oh yeah, definitely R: And in the meantime, this question is big enough do we want to just kind of round table it? L: I think, yeah, R: break format a little bit L: it's probably best for us round table it little bit. We'll pretend you also asked me and R: We're in it now L: We're in it now. R: Okay so, first of all, since it was- it was- the ball was thrown my direction L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'm- I'm lucky enough to have some friends who are part of systems and I've gotten to talk to them about this topic in particular and this is a topic that I think, when you are exploring ideas of identity, ideas of persona, you know, which is the root word that we get 'person' from, when you start talking about these things and characters and clown as a mental state as opposed to a- a skill set, it comes up very- it comes up a lot and it's a- a topic I love because it's- there's no right answer here, because you- you just get into an area that is, for lack of a better term, kind of mystic, kind of woo-woo, and you just have to- you have to roll with that because the first thing I really had driven home to me was the idea that identity, I mean, I am me sitting in his closet with you right now talking to you, my friend, on- on this podcast. We're- we're all a bunch of things. Even if we identify as one thing, throughout the course of the day, who I was before I had my morning coffee, I assure you, is a person that could not sit here and rationally have this conversation and who I am, honestly, as vulgar as it is, before I had to go to the bathroom is different than who I am after I've done my morning workout and warm up and I'm ready to interact with the world. These things change me and so I'm in constant flux identifying as even just one identity. L: Yes R: So, that's the- the first- the first thought point I have, the way I teach clown, and the way it was taught to me, and I'm- I'm going to gloss a lot of detail here because that is it's own set of topics. Is that, there's a bunch of, sort of fundamental ideas of physicality, of intellect, of spirit for lack of a better word, that we align and we start creating a sort of a heightened hyper-present, playful state and that's put through a lens that is incredibly, rigorously, confined to the stage. We really encourage, in fact, we do some specific training to say "Hey, this is- this is for this" and then it goes and rests when it's not doing that work and that's the clown, the clown state and the description I heard once that I really liked was that the clown lives in the back your head in a box and we joke about it all the time L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The clown- the clown lives in the back of your head, in a box, and at some point you sort of trade places. L: And yes, that does sound an awful lot R: Exactly L: like how I've heard any description from any plural system I have ever talked to or read from or listened from, it sounds extraordinarily similar R: Here's the in- L: to how swapping out who's fronting works. R: Here's the interesting thing. So we're taught this mental model which is about bringing something in ourselves that is us and the- the- the way I always envisioned it is very, very similar to more of a summoning of yourself if you could imagine you are going to summon you into the room. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That's what you get, you know, this sort of heightened thing, which is it's own- it- it's- it's own, I mean, it's you still though, deep down, it's all of you, L: yes R: It's your stuff, and yet somehow when it's happening, it is very- it's frightening because it- it feels a little out of control and the other important thing to realize, the counterbalance to that, is what I'm describing is a mental model. L: Yes R: I'm not describing- I'm not describing something that has either happened organically or spontaneously in response to something. I'm talking about something that was a learned, trained decision. L: That being said, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I have a pet theory which is one of the reasons why I was hoping against hope that a plural system might reach out and have this same thought R: Okay L: Not that necessarily this is the same thought, but the- the overlap, that- to notice the same- the similarities. R: So this is your- your pet theory. Let me hear your pet theory. L: My pet theory, from what I have seen and from what I have experienced. One of the common themes to most of the theories of how systems tend to be formed is through trauma, and through fairly intense trauma. I'm not going to dig further into that. R: Of course L: But if the human brain is capable of something as a defense mechanism, which is one of the common theories of how this ends up happening, then the human brain is capable of doing a thing and I am not one for putting arbitrary limits on when and why a brain can do something. Now, I don't think you're gonna end up with the same result if you attempt to intentionally cause something similar to what the response to trauma is in people who have an identity split due to it, 'cause that's not gonna be the same. Intense emotional trauma response? Not going to be the same thing as if you have intentionally put yourself in a position and consented to putting yourself in a situation where you're encouraging your brain to do something similar but when we get ourselves into that state that you mentioned, when we- where we're actively working on aligning these things within ourselves, what we then do is put somebody under pressure. R: Yeah L: and, we've talked about this a few different times, and one of the times we were talking about this, you brought up that in polls of human beings the number two fear is death. The number one fear is public speaking. R: People would rather be in the coffin than give the eulogy. L: Now, if that's true. R: Then being on stage is trauma L: then being on stage R: Can be trauma L: can be traumatic. R: I'm seeing where you're going. I'm seeing it. L: So there's a strong argument that we are honing a very specific situation to cause a small trauma. A small, controlled trauma that aims something in a particular direction and there's a strong argument, in my mind, to say that there is very little difference between the alters that a multiple system may have and a clown persona in a person, and different clowns are going to have different responses on this, and they're- not everyone's going to agree with me here, by a long shot. R: There are clowns who actively don't think- they think of it as a theater discipline and there's nothing brought to the table except a different energetic state and yet when you watch them work, they go through ritualized practices to become what they're ready to be. Whether that's putting on the costume or getting ready or doing something the same way, putting on the left shoe first, it's always there. What I'll say that's interesting, as a- and this is me putting on the teacher hat for a minute. Whenever we have a person training with us and we're teaching them clown technique and we're teaching them how to get access this thing and I think of it as like a fundamental technology human brains have, is this ability to transform and become something bigger than themselves, you just have to access and it's usually in a box in the back your head under a lot of trauma- L: Stuff R: stuff, trauma, garbage, et cetera. The first time it happens you can reliably expect to see an emotional- a severe emotional response. It's usually only for a split second, but you'll see someone laugh spontaneously, cry spontaneously, get angry. They have this flash of uncontrolled emotion, I mean, it's definitely kind of primitive L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And then for a split second, in the calm that comes after that, we see the clown and then it kind of shuts down and I feel like the idea that you create, in the theater lab, safe spaces to explore L: *Affirmative Noise* R: emotions and, you know, we talk about how clowns essentially juggle emotions. We're- we're talking about setting up a circumstance, when we want a clown to learn something, we put them in a situation where they learn it. We don't just tell them a thing. L: Yes R: We have them experience it and it's very much like- like creating a childhood play space with learning opportunities. You create a learning opportunity, they explore, they come to a conclusion, it may not be the one you want, but you're- you're- you're giving them chances to play. It's really interesting when you get into, like, trance mask were what comes in the room initially is much more primitive and you're working to get it to speak. You're working to get that- that- that persona to have any communication and you're rewarding them with laughter and applause and cheering for them and, you know, and- and giving them things to play with. It is very much childlike but it- you watch people, when they take that mask off, and they come back- we always say, they come back to themselves. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We give them a tool that allows them to step past their conceptions of their own identity and find something unexpected. Whether that is an amplification of a different angle- a different- I like to think of it, in the work, as we have all of these different lenses that we view the world- if you're- if you wear glasses and I tell all my students to do this, if you wear glasses, take a moment. Take them off and really look around the world as it is without your glasses and with glasses and realize that that lens is a choice. I'm not saying it's not a good choice but it changes your perception of reality and I feel like internally finding your way to the states, these playful states, is very similar because what we're doing is we're sort of adjusting all the lenses to get a different- a different and in- in our case very specific effect. L: Yes R: but the idea that it is, I- I think I would say that it's much- it might be trauma adjacent, I don't know if it's trauma specific. I do know that in my case, we- I talked about emotions L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I had a teacher say to me very early on that there was no place in the work for anger, because every time I got ready to work I started getting agitated and I would end up bringing it the stage and I'd be- I'd be angry and it wasn't until I really unpacked the realization that I get, backstage- I used to get rage-y, randomly, for a minute and then it would go away and I'd be ready to play, but by that point all the people I was gonna play with were mad at me because I- I said something crappy or I yelled at them or I was- I was mean and I finally realized "Oh, I'm going to have this emotion. I need to learn to manage it", because it is part of something that happens before the clown shows up there's a heightened energy that I don't know how to handle. Over time it's turned into something else and thankfully I don't rage out at everyone around me. I do get really mean in rehearsals though. L: True R: I do- I do get mean in rehearsals and I know- I know other performers who will burst into tears backstage L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and they have to plan doing their makeup to account for the time it takes to fix it. L: Yes R: and I've seen that, and you go "Oh, okay, that's really a thing" because these are- these aren't performer- they're backstage- they're not- they're part of a ritual that puts you in a place where that can happen and I know on days where I'm performing there are rituals that get me ready to work. I am, you know, I'm- if I'm going to be working, I'm listening to music. I move my body. I shave. I'm- you know L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I have a coffee right before I work. I have this sort of thing that gets me ready to work and the- the lesson from one of my teachers was figure out what you need in order to be able to- ready to play, ready to work, and give it to yourself, and it's a piece of advice I give to everybody is find out what you need and allow yourself to have that because the best you shows up when you summon it and the best way to get something to stick around after you summon it is give the offering of the thing it wants. L: Yes R: It's just- it's kind of common sense L: Yeah, I- I think also, I'm gonna double back a little bit to some of the other things I thought about R: Please L: in relation to plurality, I don't remember exactly when it was that I started actively looking for stories from plural systems. I believe it was after I was starting to do clown work and started have some of these- these experiences and something that I read about from a few different accounts really resonated with me because it was very similar to what I experience with the clown. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Which I've heard termed co-fronting. So, fronting is the who's in charge of the body, who's doing the actual interactions, who's seeing things, hearing things, interacting with people. R: Okay L: and typically that's one persona but sometimes it's not. Sometimes two or more are sort of in the cockpit, in the control room, with different levels of who's actively doing things and somebody being more passively there depending on, you know, this is different for every system that I've heard talk about it but one of the things that I noticed, when in early clown development, is that the clown would show up but I would still very much be there. Part of that was because I didn't necessarily trust the clown to know what they were doing or how to keep us safe or how to start coming up with ideas for themselves and so I would be there, sort of overseeing and it felt like they had the controls and I was just behind them or just off to the side and I had a couple of overrides or I could shout to them as I got further and further back and away, and let let them run more. It would be like I'd be shouting from far behind and then there's sometimes the clown shows up and then the show is over. R: Just like, L: and I only kind of know what happened. R: I've had that experience with improv, where you're so in the moment that when you step off the stage, it's- it's gone. You don't have it anymore. L: and then to- to the question. To the question question R: Oh, the actual L: because we had the beginning part of the question of just talking about plurality and we've taken that on in a more general sense, but the question question was "Has the clown ever stepped up and got 'I've got this' when R: *laughs* L: when we were not onstage?" R: Oh *censored* yes. L: The- the quick answer is Yes. Yes, that happens and one of the things I've noticed is, on that same co-fronting idea, is sometimes I will be getting near the clown state and I'll hear their voice or heck, once I was walking through a mall and they reached out and grabbed an article of clothing and said "I want this" I still don't know why. I've never worn it in performance. R: That's weird. I wonder what wonder what that's gonna turn into L: They said "This is mine, thanks." R: that's weird L: So, I bought it. But one of the things that we also do is we actively train to try to limit that. R: Because if you don't, then you have this problem where you have this energetic state with boundary issues, that doesn't know when it's time to play and it's- it's a twofold problem, because one hand, they're misbehaving and on the other hand they're not maximizing their energy. They're not maximizing what they can do if they're constantly bleeding through. L: Yes, So- so I've definitely had a few situations where, I mean, we have that example of a partial, where- where somebody grabbed an article of clothing and said "This is mine" but also very early on in exploring Jane. I was working at a coffee shop as a barista and they decided they could do that job. R: How did that go? L: Not very well. R: I imagined L: because there- we sometimes talk about the clown nose as a warning label R: Oh yeah, it tells people "caution i-", you know L: "Caution person who's going to behave somewhat erratically, but it will be funny, trust us." R: I use the word 'idiot' L: Frequently, yes. That's- you know, you don't have that warning label? You're not prepared for what's gonna happen. R: No L: I- I had a couple of times, she was like "I got this" very quickly it was like "No, no you don't. You really don't have this. You're having some great interactions with people-" R: "Everyone loves you but you're bad at your job." L: "but you're very bad at your job" because that is what clowns do very, very well is they are very bad at their job which means they are very good at their job. That's just it's own thing. So I- we had to step away. I had to calm down and explain why that wasn't okay and tell her to go back to sleep. R: I had a really severe early on formative experience with something like that. Once I had solidified the- the clown persona that I work with most, Jan, and it was before he had a name, we just knew who he was, he was so different than me that when he was in the room we knew and so I was working with this and it was- and it was good and the annoying thing is that somehow my shuffling of brain had put much of my, sort of like that, clown wisdom, the teaching stuff- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: in that part of the brain and so that clown knew more about clown than I did and would regularly come in the room and- and tell people how to do L: Yes R: which was great and rehearsal and annoying every other time but I had a- I had a really- a really big experience. We were on a teaching tour and I'm- I love teaching at theater workshops and things like that we're- and, you know, because usually they put you in a big theater or a hotel ballroom it's all yourself and you get to dance around like a fool or you know a L: Or a conference center or something, yeah R: Yeah, something big, but for one- for one reason or another I had never been to a high school. Now, I know this is gonna come to a shock- as a shock to a lot of people but that was not an era where I was an okay person. L: High school? R: High school and- and beforehand, leading up to it was a tough time for me. Not just puberty was a beast, which it was, but just, I was going through a lot of stuff in my life and I hadn't real- you know- you get past it and you go "Oh, I'm well" and you just don't go back to that. So you're g- you know, you're great and suddenly I found myself walking into a high school because they had us teaching in the classrooms and the gymnasiums for this one festival and I walked in and the full weight of a panic I had never dealt with showed up and I was beginning to really shut down it was actually really traumatic and I'm- I'm- we were several states away from home, our place to stay is dependent on us doing our job. You know, it's- it's- it's not something I can really I- I can't walk away. I have to do the job, logistically. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and at the same time I'm sitting there going "This is my job. I'm good at this, but I can't do this." and I'm- I'm cold sweat, panic, freaking out, not processing reality around me and in that moment the clown says "I got this" and takes a step forward and goes "Okay" turns left, walks into a classroom, teaches the class. Conveniently it was the right classroom and then proceeds to run every one of my workshops. What you're not picking up on, unless you're paying close attention, is it wasn't like I fully came back to myself in between. Which meant I was in this hyper vigilant, energized, full throttle, performance state for what worked out to be about three days. L: It was an adventure R: You were there- L: I was there R: You're the only reason I got through it. Thank you. L: I wrangled him R: because your- I'm burning all this energy, I'm nonstop, and in between I'm L: Continuing to perform R: I'm continuing to perform. I'm not a danger to anyone, because it's the best version of me, but it's the version of me that's burning the candle on three ends, and on the far side of that, I crashed and I was not okay. L: because R: I didn't- L: He checked in with me that we were done. R: Right, and at that point it was over. L: and then we were in a coffee shop R: Yeah L: We ordered a coffee, he was like "There's nothing else I need to do?" I was like "No, we're- we're good" R: And I L: and you crashed R: I crashed, sobbing, a mess and it became aware and this is an interesting sort of adjacent thing, it became aware at that time that one that was not really an option as a teacher and two, there's an upper limit to how well you can teach that way, because you're not- you're performing, you're not- you're not involved L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I came- it was a really- is a really good wake up call. I taught great workshops. I know that because the stuff I was teaching I was- I was very good at but I became aware if I was gonna go further in the work and I've gone much further since then, then I was gonna have to sort of reshuffled- remember I said some things got shuffled in? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I was gonna have to kind of sift out the- the- the idiot can't be the all-knowing idiot was- what it- was the phrase it came to and I know that's not a great way to say it and why I'm very careful about such things talking about in the context of the work but I had this moment where I had to kind of separate out that part of me that knew and the phrase, the mantra that came from one- another teacher was "It's important not to know too much" and something I say all the time and part of it is about the wonder and joy of not knowing, because that means you can discover and part of it is if you are full throttle on like that and you know every- you're not listening anymore. You're not going to pick up on anything new. You're done with your journey at that point and that is not a way to keep evolving as a performer, as a creative person, as a human being and so there was a period after that of adjustment where I think I sort of had to relearn how to use the skills I already had as a teacher. My performance skills, weirdly, because suddenly I didn't think I knew everything L: They got better R: I got- I jumped ahead in skill L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but I had to, kind of, rego- go through again and learn how to- learn how to teach and it was very good for me and was very good for, ultimately, for many students because I've been through this process where something in me took over ran the room and then of it's own volition and of my own volition, we disassembled and reassembled and made some, you know, sort of internal L: You changed the- change their- the- the read permissions on a set of data R: I guess. I guess L: in your head. R: I guess, yeah, for lack of a better- I got acc- L: That- that user lost- lost read permissions on R: on something L: on a set of things R: So, that was such a profound experience for me because it was the first time within the work that I really had- I really had something that was, I gave over my control and there's- there's a story I have where I was- I was- it was after that, I was working with De Castro and- and in- in the break in between sessions I had a moment where I learned how to get out of me- we talk about "we're in our way", "we're hold- we're repressing the clown" "we are holding that playful state back 'cause we don't trust it"? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I had a moment where I learned how to get out of my own way and it was a really profound moment of it's own but it- it becomes a really- it becomes really helpful to think of it in these like, the- we- we talk what we think about the clown as a separate person because it really helps our mental health L: *Affirmative Noise* R: more than anything. The other thing I think about, was whereas you were talking about reading systems, reading plural people's experience, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I went the other way and I- and it wasn't a skeptics way. I happen to keep meeting wonderful people who I- who had- who had this as part of their identity and that was wonderful because I got this perspective L: Yes R: to balance what I did, because I dove in figuring there must be an answer somewhere in the text. So I'm studying theater. I'm studying mask. I'm studying psychology. I'm studying, honestly, some occult stuff. I'm digging down various rabbit holes looking for an answer. Which of course, there isn't one consistent answer because one side says "It's a mental health crisis" the other side says "It is god speaking through us" and you have to find some version of that that works L: That works for you R: Exactly, but what I remember was talking about willful skills, there was a- there's a thing- it's a controversial thing called tulpamancy. Which is mentally creating- I'm being super simplifying, put create a mental projection of an idea and give it enough autonomy that it becomes a thing you see and it- it's sort of like giving yourself an intentional hallucination L:*Affirmative Noise* R: I always think of "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" Bob Hoskins talking about how he pictured Roger Rabbit so often that that became an autonomous thing that even when he wasn't working for years later he still saw and talked to. L: Yeah R: So it's like that right. So I became fascinated with that and so I found- I found a meditation to help you with this process and I figure I can bail out of a process L: Like an audio guide? R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, put- put in the headphones and listen to it and I'm- I'm so old I just made the gesture of an audio cassette. L: I saw R: Yeah, but I- it was on- it on a device. Anyway, point is, I said "I'm gonna give over to this and give it a shot" and this is- I've been studying clown for years, this was in, you know, recent- reletiv- not recent history, but you know, last handful of years. I laid down so I can imagine, and I said "What I'm going to do is, I'm gonna bring the clown into the room because I'm always doing it through me. So what happens if I do it like this?" and I start imagining and it's "Oh, imagine the silvery energy and glowing in the shape of the thing you want, now begin to sculpt it with your mind" and I'm going through all this and I hear from behind me, over my left ear, hear "What the hell are you doing?" but it's the clown's voice, clear as day, and I was "I'm making you happen, you know, in the room", "No, that- you can't do that" and suddenly I'm having an- this audio is still playing in my ears and I'm having an argument with someone in my mind that is in the room. The clown- and the clown, I finally go "Well, why is this a problem?" and the clown says "because I come in through you, that's the point. You get out of the way, I do my job and then I leave. If I'm in the room the way you're describing, I only exist in your mind and I can't be shared with anyone else in that way" and that's the clown's wisdom from that and I thought L: oh, wow, yeah R: and- and it was such a- it was such a strange moment to be in an argument with you- in an out loud, like, in the room, yelling argument with myself while listening- I have a thin wall behind my bedroom and I'm very worried that people hear me, but it was- it was good because it answered a question I had, which was that idea of the summoning through yourself was such a profound part of the clown experience. It has to come through you so it can be in the world. We're not talking about L: 'cause that's what it's for. R: Right. It's- the description I heard is that mediumship, this is from the occult studies, mediumship is for talking to the dead and clown is for talking to the living and that's what it's for. I- you can't talk to the living if it's only- if it's all in your head. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So that's where one of the most interesting splits was, of course, doing more research, the clown doesn't necessarily come with the same sort of inner world that L: They- they have very, very limited inner world R: And I think that's to keep them from running off on you L: *Affirmative Noise* R: in some ways and it's- it's an interesting- it's an interesting difference because talking to those that come from plural systems, talking to them about how sometimes there are enormous inner worlds L: Yes R: and an inner lives and I think that's wonderful. It is just very different than the experience we have with the clown, where we had a- a workshop, we brought one of the clowns who was- who's very, very good L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Some wonderful clown, comes in the room, we said "We're going to do interviews" and this was a sort of stuff where the clown gets a chance to talk about what on their mind and it was such a neat experience, because you don't normally do that. 'Cause normally you give the clown a job and you yell at them and they play. So this was a chance to the clown intellect run and somebody, and you know, first it's "What's your favorite sandwich?" and then eventually it was "Where do you go when you're not here?" Somebody dared to ask it and I was- and in the back of my head as a teacher, I was facilitating, I'm like "Oh, no" this is gonna really L: Don't do that! R: I said "Are you gonna" and I honestly thought this was gonna break the clown L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that was in the room. I thought the performer and the clown were going to have a problem. And the clown looks very thoughtful and says "Well, when I'm not experiencing that" and they begin to describe and they said "Well, I sort of float and I close my eyes and I- I rest" and the two things that came out of that were, we teach the clown to go rest when they're not performing. So they're ready to play. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We tell them that we say "go- good job, go rest." very common thing to say to the clowns when they're in training L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and they'll even tell you, later on once they're stable, they'll tell you "I need to rest. I'm tired" L: Oh yeah. R: and it means they're running out of energy to be in the room. It's not that they're necessarily even physically tired, they're- they're- they're not staying. They're giving you warning. But the other thing was, the description, the sort of poetic, I don't remember it exactly, but this beautiful poetic description sounded like floating in the womb L: yeah R: and it really, it was poetic and we all kind of felt chills as we heard this description of this clown going "Yes, when I'm not here, I- I float and I wait until the opportunity to come in the room and play some more and it recharges me and it's dark and it's calm and it's safe." and I was just like "Woah! You said that" and so somewhere- the balance to that is to my- we always joke, if you ask the clown, you know, they sleep in a cardboard box backstage. Their life exists on stage L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So the idea- and- and for me it's a- it's a really weird literal truth because the two rubbermaid tubs that are sitting here, one of them has my clown in it. L: Yes R: When we go to an event site we put the clown in it and the clown sleeps in there when I'm not working, is the joke, so it's like I'm literally sitting next to the box with a clown sleeps in and I always joke about "Oh, I sleep in a box backstage" you know L: But that's how you actually mentally R: separate, yeah. L: Is that- is that where it seems like he is R: No, no. Not for- not for- not for me. I don't think so. Hang on, let me check. I'm going to make some noise, I'm sorry. *rubbermaid tub opens and closes* R: Yeah, that's a rubbermaid, did you hear the pop? L: Yeah, I did R: No, there's no- ah No. I don't- I don't- I don't have that L: because I do think R: What I have is are just- I'll tell you, for me L: *Affirmative Noise* R: When I'm working and the clown is really active? Like we're having a conversation like this, the clown's a little bit here, you know, I feel that feeling? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the clown is just behind me, to the right a little bit, and I think I associate this- one of my teachers used to delight in stepping up behind you and whispering notes to you while you're performing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and it's like, where the wisdom comes in. So I think the clown figures out "Oh, that's where smart people talk" and so goes back there but also, they're here, they're just out of my field of vision. So I can't see them. As long- I turn my head, well, now my head's turned and I can't see them. They're just behind my ear. So I think it's like that L: See to me- to me, the one little bit of inner world that I have going. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: is that, where I've heard different descriptions of cockpits or control rooms or- or similar things, there's a stage. There's wings. There's a stage R: in your head L: Where I am right now R: Okay L: is the stage R: Right L: Where they are right now, is just offstage R: waiting L: maybe even in a green room somewhere, but I have no data on that, 'cause it's dark back there, 'cause the stage is brightly lit and it's dark just offstage. R: *inhales* L: If you go into the wings it's too dark to really had a clear idea of where that is or what it is R: Oh, that's so good and we create these mental models and I think we create them because we are- we are physical beings. We have bodies, you know, those of us who are sitting in the room, listening, being, doing, and I think we create these mental models because they help us handle this information that we don't know what to do with. L: Yeah R: and I think whatever one you're using, if it's making you happy, if it's making you well, if it's making you functional, if it's making you creative, if it's giving you pleasure, whatever model you exist under, I think that's wonderful. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: What is important, I think, is to- is to discover it and not decide it. One of the things we have to do, and I'm again- I can really only speak to this from- from the work. We have to be very careful not to write for the clown because I- I've heard people go "Oh, well my clown this, my clown that, and we will do this" you can't write like you're writing with a pen. You have to go into the lab and discover and have an experience, because it will fundamentally be different than whatever you wrote, because what you wrote is you writing. What the clown does is what they're doing. L: Yeah. So, you can make some predictions once you've seen what they do enough R: Sure L: You can go "Okay, well now, they tend to do this" and you can make some guesses and you can put some frameworks out to attempt to guide them in a particular way R: but they'll surprise you L: but you really don't know what's gonna happen. R: I'm a teacher. I have been in front of so many baby clowns. I don't have a number, I refuse to count. But what I'll tell ya, and I've- I've been lucky enough to be there when they- when they show up and help them develop material and then some established ones go further and things like that. They'll always do something that surprises you. Can I tell a story out of your- out of your life? L: Yes, I know- I think I know which one you're gonna go for, so yes. R: 'cause you had a clown persona that surprised me in a way that actually revitalized both my questions and my beliefs about the subject of identity. So, I have to preface this by saying part of the job of the teacher, once you get past just giving out information, and once you get past being the cheerleader, is you have to be the provocateur. The clown will just faff about or go to sleep or count blades of grass if they're not- if they're not given something to press against. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's just, it's a- it's a nature of the beast sort of thing. So one of the jobs that I found out that years of being a complete ass L: *laughs* R: paid off, in that once I grew up and developed a fully formed soul, I could still tap into that and where it seems to manifest is my ability to provoke in the lab under the right circumstances and knowing, not just knowing what to say, but where press. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know what I'm saying? So one of the- one of the skills that comes out of this, is this discussion where you have a young- a young clown and you challenge- the first thing, you challenge them is you kind of give them a "Really?" and if they flinch, you're like "Get out, you're not here anymore" and you what your goal is, is not to shut them down but it's to actually make them stand up to all the scrutiny because some child is going to go "You're make believe" and it's over because all the sudden the performer goes "I'm a fraud!" and you have to prevent that, because that's not productive. L: Yeah R: So there comes a point where as you go deeper into this and you get past that. Now you've got a persona that's in the room and now you got to challenge it. You gotta figure out what it thinks, what it feels, what it wants, what it likes, what it hates. L: Yes R: and when I say all of those, including the less positive ones, those things are important because they help you write stories. If you have a clown that hates something, you're probably gonna wanna explore that because that's where some interesting emotions for storytelling live. L: Yes R: Not because you want to torture someone. So you- you bring Chadwick into the room. L: Yes R: This- this "I come from the gym" when asked for his origin story he says "I come from the gym- L: "From the gym" R: "I come from the gym, yo" and- and there's the- it's like this L: He didn't say "yo" R: He didn't didn't say "yo" but he meant it. L: He may as well have. R: He's- he's a dead split and I'm- I'm going to- I get to speak from the outside, so it's great. He's a dead split between, you know, a sad emo boy and a gym rat. I mean if you were to just combine those two things, you're pretty much in- but with so much L: Yeah, if a sad emo boy was allowed to be in the gym without being harassed. R: Right. Exactly. L: That's who he is. R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah L: That's who he is. R: I'm blending- I'm blending- L: Some tropes R: I'm blending tropes not- not saying what the experience would be like, 'cause I'm not there. So, you- you have somebody who could both do cartwheels and- and talks like a gym rat and sobs poetry at the drop of a hat. It's a very funny person to be around and you're- the hardest job is to not laugh in their face, and so this is who- and this is who I'm working with. L: Yes R: This- this persona, this character, who is very- is very different than you L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and- and for one thing, you- you are a tank with your sense of humor and this is someone who actually comes across quite fragile and it's very funny L: Yes R: Then again, I'm- I'm taking and I'm- I'm now in the room and my job that day is to take a swing at this clown. L: Yes R: So the clown- verbally L: I had to- I had consumed extra water. R: For the sobbing because L: To prepare R: I've seen you dehydrate. So, one of the things I said I was challenging- we were getting into this discus- this sort of like, we're- were stalking each other. I put the mats out and we were stalking each other like- like wrestlers, like boxers on the boxing match and I was challenging- instead of throwing a punch, I would throw a question and the answer would come and it was either deflect, push back, or fall or- or be knocked out L: *Affirmative Noise* R: was sort of- was sort of, imagine a boxing match. So we're having this sort of dance off. This philosophic dance off, and at one point I said "Prove you're real" L: That ass R: and- and he said, he didn't even flinch, he didn't- there was no pause. I can't produce the answer fast enough to- to feel what it came like because it hit me squarely on the chin. He says "How can you prove that the- the person I am when I'm not performing is real and that- I'm real and they're made up. Prove they're not made up." and I was like "Uh-oh" and of course as the teacher you can't- you can't show the "Uh-oh". You have to say "Well played, yes." and in the back of my head I'm like "Oh no, you've just called every- every person in the world potentially a fraud and therefore you're just as real as they are" and I- I ca- after it was over I came apart, and had to put myself back together because that felt very true. L: And as it turned out R: you came out a few months later L: I came out a few months later and went "Oh, hmn.. R: wow L: maybe- maybe it was made us a bit of an act" R: So I think, I think the button on this topic, for me, is that is just- is just, "I'm sure you're just as real as I am" and that's what's terrifying. That's why clowns- there's- there's a bit of- they're they're a little scary in that regard. L: *Affirmative Noise* and this is the type of thing we don't tend to talk- the- the reason we don't talk about this in the lead ups on work- on workshops R: No L: or- if it gets discussed during workshops at all, it in the- it's in the time after the workshop or the breaks in between things because it only seems to apply once people have reached that place because if I approach someone and say I am offering a course in how to split your soul into multiple pieces so that some of them are able to to perform particular tasks R: Not everyone's going to say yes L: and a lot of people who could potentially be very good performers and could benefit from taking a course in clown might get very scared and or be very concerned about what I'm doing. R: What's funny about that is there are so many celebrities that if you- if you talk to them, and- a- celebrity performers performers, and when I mean by this is well known performers that get in front of very large crowds. L: Yes R: Who, on their way up, went through a time where they had a persona that was the rock star that was capable of doing that L: Yes, many, many very well known musicians in particular R: Sure L: did that, yeah R: and I think it's- I think it is very, it's- it's very adjacent. This sort of thing where we're grabbing at the best parts of ourselves, compressing them under a little bit of pressure L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and then encouraging them to to go out there and- L: and play R: and play and I think it's very interesting L: That's- So, yes. The very, very short answer could have just been "Yeah, that's happened." R: All the time, but it's more fun to talk about it. With that in mind, before we move on if there's something we've mentioned in this where you want us to expound or you have a question, I'll put this out twice. First, to everybody listening, this is a huge topic that we- even, even with research we can't do well but we love to talk about so by all means if you have further questions, feel free, and secondly to the person who asked us this wonderful inspire- you know, question that inspired this conversation, if you have further questions that maybe you don't want had, you know, in- in this forum, by all means reach out. I'd love have a conversation about it because I think L: Yeah, happy to talk to anybody. R: You know, I mean, maybe it's just because we're trapped in a closet and were lonely but I'm always up for a good conversation. L: Yeah, easy to- easy to have conversations that don't- don't end up here. R: Right and for those of you listening along who decided to fast forward, please turn your players on now and I'll read you another question. L: Fantastic R: Okay. Well done on that, okay L: Thank you R: Okay. So, the question now, shaking off- oh good, we can shake off the heavy stuff. This is good, I like this one. "I love the idea of 'Turnip Day'. I need a little clearer criteria for when I can call one though. I want to know if it is still to come for me or I just missed it." Okay, for a quick review 'Turnip Day' is my personal holiday which I invented and then shared with everyone to make for yourself, and it was the day I got, after many, many, many, many months of work my first handstand. L: Yes R: and it was- it was a- it was a big deal for me because it felt like a huge breakthrough and I was coming back from injury and trauma on things and so it now is it an annual celebration that I- I- I look forward to every year but there's your question. L: So, there's the question. I happen to know, because I wrote these cards and that the person in question also did specify where they're at on their handstand journey. R: Oh, neat L: and so, to that person, my friend you've missed it. Declare it whenever you'd like. but R: Congratulations! L: Congratulations R: You turnip-y genius of body inversion L: but the- we took, for our definition of when you can say you have done a handstand and can do a handstand as opposed to when you are trying to do a handstand, we took directly from a definition given to us by The Handstand Factory, which is a group that is teaching. R: We'll link to them in the show notes. L: Who we are studying from and their definition of when you do a handstand is balancing on your hands, so kicking up or going up into a handstand, making at least one balance correction and then intentionally coming back down. So, you go up, there is no du- there's no time specification, it is simply you go up under your own power, you correct at least once, and you come back down under your on power, by your own decision. That is the definition that R: We use l: We use, because we pulled this from that program and when you were trying to decide and create this moment for yourself, when- when did it count? We talked about it, because there are some options and there were some options that we- that we considered R: Oh yeah, I know L: and I'll probably let you speak on that, R: Sure L: but from- but after we dis- after we discussed some of the possible options, that was what we decided on and then you counted on me to help verify that you had in fact reached a vertical line in your up, and that you had balanced correctly and so we jointly decided when you had actually reached it. R: I wanted- I wanted an outside eye. I don't- I don't- I don't have a photo of me doing a handstand. I don't have a video and that was very intentional. This was a practice that I wanted to take on for my own reasons, both for health but also as a way to really, really focus on being present in my body and so I wanted something that I could both do and feel and have someone in the room who wasn't filming it verify. Not that there's anything wrong with it, this was just of a way I wanted to approach it. It was something for me. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that I don't want look at it. I want to feel it. So I've been really careful to not film myself, check myself in that way. L: Which is counter to how a lot of people choose to R: *Affirmative Noise* L: train it, It's counter to how I train it so R: Absolutely. L: That's you very specifically. R: That's me very specifically. Now, what I'll say was I had an intermittent goal- I had an intermediate goal where I kicked up and touched a wall behind me. I had, you know, certain- certain things along the way like that, but what I was looking for was, and it's really clear that it was the minimum bar that I could determine was actually a handstand the not just throwing myself into a thing and hanging out there 'till I fell. I was looking for "When is this a bad handstand so that I can say 'I can do terrible handstands' a now I can work on improving that" as opposed to "I can't quite do a handstand". I was looking for that line. L: Whereas, when we were talking about the possibility of the "Turnip Day" we also talked about, like, does it- is it when you touch the wall? That was a possibility, because it was you being upside down. R: Right and I- I started off without being- what's funny is that I started off going "Oh, yeah that's my goal, as soon as I touch the wall I get- I get to call it" and then once I got that, I wanted a little bit more and then I wanted a little bit more, and then at some point it became clear "Okay, I've done it. I need to declare it, otherwise I'm just gonna keep chasing a thing L: Yeah, chasing your goals, shifting- having shifting goals is good R: but I needed- I needed some point where I declared "This is in fact, a success. Now I can go and improve on that success." There's a- there's a thing. I always- I always liked the idea, you have to be- you have to be terrible at something before you can be good at it. So, having, like, that bar where you say "I have succeeded in doing something badly" is a big deal, and realize we're talking about succeeding at doing something badly after L: Months, and months, and months of work. R: Right. So, yeah I was looking- I was looking for a goal like that. I will say to anybody doing a physical task, give yourself little rewards along the way. What I've learned from circus is that the early rewards come quickly. Throw a ball and catch it. You've- you've- you've succeeded. Later on, the- the rewards get further spaced. They're still there, but they get spaced further apart and they're a little harder to see. So I think celebrating those little tiny victories is really important and congratulations on what apparently by your- by your call L: Yes R: Is a definitely- you're succeeding and I'll throw one more offer, which is that if you want to send- if you're filming yourself, because like me, I don't. If you are filming yourself, and you want us to look at it and make an official declaration, if that sort of thing is something you care about, where are you have clowns incarcerated in a closet looking at a video and acknowledging that you've done a thing that you've already done, then yeah we'll totally do that. L: Oh, definitely. R: Yeah L: Happily R: Sure. I think that's silly, and you should just go and give yourself the- the reward you want because you've- you've succeeded, according to what I hear, So congratulations and yeah L: All right, R: All right then. I think that was- that was L: Yeah, so I turned that one around without actually R: it was L: asking it. It was implied R: It was a casual redirect L: Yes R: conversational L: So it is time to move onto the next question. R: Yes L: and that question is R: Do you want a drumroll? L: No. R: Okay L: I don't think this one- I don't think this one needs it R: Okay L: Some need it, some need the- the boost but I think this one's good. R: Okay L: "Do clowns have specializations?" R: Wow L: See? I told you. It's R: Yeah, yeah, because my instinct is- is- is it could be a very short answer. So, one of the things I teach people is to never get onstage unless you're doing something you love because at any moment, that may be what you do on stage for the rest of your life. You never know what act people are going- what audiences are going to ask for. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I have some performances that I do a lot. I have some skills that I haven't done a years, just because they're not what I end up- what I end up doing or knowing. For me, I've also noticed that when you have a performing company, and I've been part of larger performing companies at different times, the clown always seems to be the ultimate generalist. Their specialty is the fact that they know a little of this and a little of that. Yeah, I can dance a little, sing a little, play an instrument badly. I could do a little bit of juggling, I can, you know, that was, kind of- you kind of become the person who fills in all the holes between all of these big acts because you have these people who have spent their life honing one skill. L: Yeah R: and so you're in there being the glue, the human glue, between these really amazing physical performances and I love being in a company like that and the reason why is because the less people there are in a show, the more I have to do and it gets exhausting. L: *laughs* R: No, it's true because if- if I do a solo show, suddenly I have to provide every shape in the show. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: If I am the glue between I can sometimes just walk on stage with a box and go "This is my box" and everyone will be excited about that. I don't have to do anything. I love that- the ease that that is. It's a high energy thing and it's a very high risk choice to walk out with nothing. It's something I really- I enjoy the pressure of. So I think the specialty, if I was to go looking for it, is that the- in- within the context of circus and of larger performances, the clown is the only act that needs the audience. If you think about it, the high wire, they can just walk across the high wire all they want. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, the aerialist can fly through the air, the acrobats can stack, the jugglers can throw their stuff, but ultimately if my job is to go to the audience and grab an audience member and there's no audience? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Show's over. L: True R: There's just nothing happening L: True, there's nothing there R: If I go (to the tune of 'shave and a haircut') "Dun du du dun dun" *two snaps* and I don't get that little snap snap? L: Oh yeah that's going to a problem. R: It's over. L: In fact we've- we've run into the problem of not knowing how long our show was gonna go. R: We wrote an incredible show that we decided, it was a little long, but we decided to not put an intermission in and we went "It'll be fine, the show runs-" I think it was an hour and a half L: We thought it was about an hour. R: No, it was an hour and half L: Oh, okay. R: Which was long, and we were like- and we put, at the front door, we put a person who made announcements who said "Please, there is no intermission, there will not stop, it's a roller-coaster ride. Pee first." Literally, asked every person, when they came in "Have you peed? Have you peed? Have you peed?" it was like that. Which is a weird thing ask an audience L: and yet R: and yet, they did it without seeming horrifying. Which I thought was a great character bit. It was a very, kind of, caring sort of- sort of figure out at the door, trying to take care of you but what we didn't count on, was when we- when we timed the show we didn't time it with an audience, and with an audience L: and several clowns R: Suddenly that was a two hour show and people- we would go- we would ask audiences after the show "Obviously we need to cut it, what should we cut?" they said "Nothing, put an intermission in" and ultimately we we set that up for the- we were planning on doing that for the next run. But the point is, we- we're with the audience. Our specialty is human interaction. Our specialty is emotional connection, and I think that's- if you look at the one skill that separates the clown from everybody else, what do they specialize in, within the context of everybody else? L: Yeah it's R: That's it. Within clowns? I'm sure they all- you know, musical clown, puppetry clown, this clown, that clown, acrobatic clown, juggling clown. Sure. But I think the specialty, if you look at them versus the world? Humans, we know 'em. What about you? Do you- "Do clowns have specializations?" L: "Do clowns have specializations?" So, I think you are spot on about how many, many of the clowns that I know are generalists and a huge part of it is you pull from absolutely everything and anything, at least until you've got your act and then yes, there is that thing of you suddenly are now the person who does this one very specific, very odd thing R: and variations thereof L: and variations thereon. However, you have forgotten one of the traditional ways that clowns happen. R: I have forgotten something? It's impossible. L: Because, if somebody has decided to become a clown and they are not already a skill performer, they're gonna pick up a whole bunch of different skills because that's how you find what's funny. R: Yeah L: However, historically there has been a tradition of those who are specialists in any given physical discipline in the circus R: Oh, retiring L: tend to retire into clown, and so they have to learn the clown skills, the people part R: but they've already got a physical, something in the bag L: They already have a specialty skill R: Okay, L: and those, one hundred percent, do specialize. R: I forgot, you're right, I forgot about how other people do it. L: 'cause the clown- clown on the wire? R: is it's own thing L: is it's own thing R: and that's the wire- the best wire person. L: that is the person who has been on the wire for so many years, they know all of it and can look like they're failing R: yeah L: Safely. R: If you ever see someone in a show doing something badly, dangerously, most likely, if they're doing that and you're laughing, they're probably the most skilled performer involved in that grouping. L: There's- there's two ways that happens. There is- there's that, that is the most likely way that that happens, but one of the things that I've noticed is that in my training of physical skills, knowing that I'm a clown, and knowing with intent I have for physical skills, I will learn enough of the "correct" way to do something quote unquote and then I will deliberately start training the modes of perceived failure that are safe. So I will never reach the point of knowing how to do the skill perfectly by the- by the rules of that skill performance because, for example, I learned how to do everything with my feet flexed, very specifically because R: It looks funny L: It looks funny. So I will only learn how to do with thing with my feet pointed until I know how to do it and then I start deliberately training it with flexed feet even though anyone teaching that skill would be actively annoyed with me because that quote unquote "wrong" and they've got good reasons why it's wrong but I know that my use of the minimum- the minimum level of skills I have with it is intentionally for clown and so I have to learn how to do that. R: So you give yourself permission to be bad at things as part of your work L: Very much that. Yeah. R: That's- that's- I think if we- if more of us did that we'd be in a good place. L: I give myself permission to actively learn the wrong way to do a thing, so long as I've tested that it's safe first. R: That's- that's- L: It's a thing R: It's a thing. I am to read this to you now. 'Cause I think you've answered. I think you've- I think you've landed the L: Okay yeah. R: previous question. So, you get a bonus question because you've given us a great- and you are- you- you- you outflanked me with the- with the- the circus history knowledge. I was so focused on my own experience, which was just being lucky to be in the room. I didn't have any skill. L: *laughs* R: I'm just happy to be here. Okay. Oh my, are you ready? L: Yes R: Okay. "If you could rotate any room in your home by ninety degrees and gravity would accommodate, you walk on what was a wall as if it were the floor, which room would you rotate? If you could do this for any enemies would your selection change? Are there any public spaces you'd like changed in this way?" Wow L: That's a brain breaker. R: You've been- you've been asked to defy physics again L: So, the answer is- if I can- if I could turn a room ninety- if I could turn gravity ninety on a room R: That's not what it says, it says turn the room ninety and gravity would accommodate. I mean, interpret as you will. I think they're- L: Fair R: I think you're right but go on. L: Ummm *long pause* L: hmmm, I think I would try to see if I could manage something with more floorspace but I don't think R: Yeah, this place doesn't L: I don't think there's a room in my house that does that. It's a thing I would totally do for that purpose R: You're just- L: but I don't think I have one. R: You're just lost on this L: I don't think I have a room that works that way. R: Well pick a room and rotate it. L: Well I'm thinking about rotating my bedroom. Mostly because I think that'd be hilarious R: To walk on the wall? L: Yeah, mostly to walk into my bedroom and that be on a different gravitational- R: Oh just the way you'd have to enter would be tricky too. 'Cause you'd have to like jump in L: Yeah, that sounds like fun. R: Oh, you make it- L: So I honestly, I might do that. I think there's at least one wall where the- where I don't lose floorspace- quote unquote "floorspace" that way. So I think- I think I might- I might do it to my bedroom, because it would be silly and fun and there's R: I love that you've- you've worked out that clowns are all entrances and exits. L: Once again, it's about how they get in there. R: I like that. L: So, so I like that idea quite a bit. So I think- I think it's in my bedroom. R: And what about your enemies Ohh? L: Umm R: And do you have enemies? L: I don't know that I do right now. R: Not- not ones personally. L: Not personal ones and I feel like if you're simply thinking about, like, if an intruder came into your space would you wish that it was something other than the one you just pick- picked and I think in that case, No, 'cause my bed would be up on the wall. That would confuse the heck out of them and they'd be scared. So I'd have a way to be safe in my home. So I think it stays that way. R: You have a defensive perimeter based on modified gravity L: Yes. R: I just wanted to say that because it sounded cool. L: So I think- I think it stays the same R: Okay L: on that and the question of if there's any public spaces I would change that way, I don't have a particular one in mind, but the idea of there being a jungle gym- a- a playground climbing space that you're walking along like- if like, you're walking along out from a school and then gravity just shifts by ninety degrees in the place that you climb? I think that would be- that would be my thing, like, that would be so much fun R: So good L: I- Yeah, I think that- that would be- that would be what I'd wanna do, because that- that would just be very silly. R: Could- could- could lean on a slide or walk up a monkey bar or something yeah. L: Because I- I've always just kind of ignored how I'm supposed to interact on R: You have a gravity problem L: climbing equipment when it comes to to gravity in the first place R: yeah L: So the idea of- mostly the idea, in that case, that's- that would be that thing of intentionally setting myself so that it looks like i am on the quote unquote "ground". So what would be a level, like, were gravity was for other people R: Oh, so you're- you're looking normal and everybody's standing on the ceiling? L: I'm looking normal and people are standing on the ceiling. Or if I'm alone in the space, I'm looking normal but then somebody walks in R: And they're L: and now they're suddenly pulled to the far- to the- to the wall off to the side. R: I love that to make this joke work, you have to sit there exerting all of your effort L: exerting tons of energy in order to R: just to sit still L: to sit still. That so my- that's so the sort of thing I like. R: I think that's you as a person though. It is a tremendous amount of effort for you to sit still. L: Also true R: So that's good L: So then, let me ask you. R: Are you gonna flip the question around? L: I am going to flip the question around! R: See what I did there? This is so good and let me tell you why. In addition to our- our new timing of recording, we've- we've changed circus in place, our- our public workout sessions on video chat to a daytime schedule. L: Yes R: and yesterday L: Oh yeah R: We turned the room around because the sun was coming in behind us and it was blowing out the camera and because of that we would have to close the miniblinds, which was fine, but we were missing out on all the- we were getting some daylight- we were missing out on the daylight and it was kind of a bummer. We were trying to figure out, could we reverse the room? L: And so we took yesterday, which was an off day R: Right and we reversed the room, and what was so cool about this was that okay so, we set it all up and then we turned around and looked at it and the radical, just by spinning all your- your- we didn't really turn any furniture around. L: No, we just changed which direction we're filming from. R: Right. It completely changed the environment and it felt like a different place and it's so- it rattled me a little bit. Not in a bad way, but like "My cheese has been moved at the Olympic level" way. I've- I am- I- I kind of had a little moment where I was like "Woah, everything's different. What does this? And what does that? The ceiling in there is slanted. Now it's slanting the wrong way. The light's coming in this way instead of that way" and then when I settled down on it, I was like "Wow, how much this room has been transformed by simply facing it in the wrong direction" and if you were to level that up by going other walls, other things, other what-nots? The practical in me goes I need the- we have very little floor space and it's not- we only have one room with tall ceilings and I don't think, with the stairwell, we get any additional floor space but I think it might be really cool for me, a personal space, What would I change? I know what it is. L: Yes? R: But it's embarrassing. I know what it is. It's embarrassing. L: Okay so "If you could rotate any room R: yeah L: in your home R: It's embarrassing L: by ninety degrees R: yeah L: and gravity would accommodate R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Which room would you rotate?" R: So, the- I'm very sleepy when I first wake up L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and there are two bathrooms in this place. I'm further defining the world, because we didn't really do the 'up the stairs' thing L: Oh, true R: And that's why it felt wrong earlier. So there are two- there are two bathrooms in this place and the toilet paper holder's on different wall on each. One it's on the left side, one it's on the right. When I'm really sleepy, it throws me off, and sometimes I reach the wrong direction. So I don't care which bathroom, but I think if we could spin one of the bathrooms around so the toilet paper's on the other side. That'd be great for me. L: Okay R: So that's- that's my- my for me- for my enemy? L: Yes, So "if you- if you could do this for any enemies, would your selection change?" R: Easy. So easy! I'd like the bathroom inverted one eighty so the L: no you get R: toilet's on the ceiling? Toilet's on the ceiling, but gravity only affects the water? Not anything else? No problem. L: Okay, that's hilarious but the question was ninety degrees R: Oh ninety? L: You don't get one-eighty, you don't get to do it twice. R: Oh, that wrecks it. I was gonna poop on a billionaire. Now what? You've wrecked my plan L: I'm sorry R: Nine- Okay, ninety degrees? Bathroom- So bathroom we can still make work, we could rotate the- we could rotate one ninety degrees and it'll L: It will be fine R: It'll make it work, we can make that work. What would I do for an enemy? I don't have a lot of enemies. Oh, I got it. I would have, whatever enemy has the best view? I would turn their house so it wrecks their view, and just makes their day a little crappy. L: Alright R: That's what I'd do L: Alright, that works R: and for public, I would like a park, because I think everybody should have the ability to climb up a nice grassy wall L: *laughs* Alright R: I haven't gotten to do it, I think it sounds fun. Just a nice grassy wall, going up to- and you lay on some sunshine. It just sounds good, doesn't it? L: Yeah R: Yeah. That's my answer. L: Okay R: Okay, for all of you out there we hope you have- L: That- that is the end of our cards so, R: Is the end of our cards. I hope you are- hope you rotate your rooms in ways that make you happy. L: Yes R: I hope whatever, whatever voices in your head are pleasant. L: Yes R: I hope whatever you specialize in, you manage to turn it upside down from time to time L: Very nice R: You see? I- I put the button on it L: Yeah very- very, very R: button-y. Button-y L: Button-y. R: Yes L: Yeah. R: Thank you for listening and spending some time with us. We'll see a next time, right here L: On "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: and now, and this is exciting. I have another theme song remix L: Oooh R: I do, you ready? Listen carefully. Theme song remix. *door opens* *theme song plays*