----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 15 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2023-02-07 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Russ: Solid door slam. Hat, floor, and friends. Liam: I love how you just didn't comment on hitting the shoes across the way from you when you put your hat on. R: You couldn't let me have a nice moment. L: No, because you could hear it. R: You know, I was downstairs where we do Circus In Place L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I was thinking it was time to come do this and we got it together and I came up here, up the stairs, across the little landing, past the hat rack, past the bookshelf in my bedroom, all the way into this little closet to record this podcast which we call L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: and I thought we were gonna have a nice conversation, but instead I am met with the hostility of how I hang my hat on my head L: There was no hostility about how you hang your hat R: I think you L: on your head R: I think you need an attitude adjustment. L: There was no hostility. R: I feel like your attitude is out of whack and it needs to be whacked L: Oh goodness, this is not the type of place where we threaten violence. R: It's not? I thought we did slapstick for half our job. L: That- that's in the gym. R: Oh right, here I'm supposed to be smart. L: It's very R: Shall we go again? L: It's very small in here. R: Should I open the door and go L: No, no, no. I think we're good. I think we're fine. R: and we probably better not because I think there's a theme song behind it and if I open it L: Yeah, I don't want to trigger off the theme song. R: that's a lot of stuff going to worry about L: but I do- but I am- I am very glad that we remembered to do the "up the stairs" thing this time, 'cause we forgot last time. R: I know. In the edits I realized that we hadn't done it and I almost came in here and recorded it without saying anything, but I thought it would be so inauthentic to clip something together because this has been done, and not everyone knows this, we do these shows in one take. L: Yes, these are single take R: The only thing I will admit to is that in a few instances, especially this year, because I have some coughing and things, I've- I've cut a few of those out, but mostly I don't even do that. L: No, we just R: I give you- we try to give you one good take and practice that performance skill of being here in the room with you. Which is what we're trying to- I don't want to use the word simulate because that sounds like were faking something, but we're trying to imagine. L: Yes, so thank you for being here in the room with us, even though it is little cramped. R: It is. I left you a spot though, right over there by my shoes. L: You're sitting next to me R: It's true. Well, we're here. We're back. We do have some more questions, as I understand it. L: We do have more questions because people just keep asking us things. It's wonderful. R: It's very good L: Thank you R: Yeah L: Every time we ask more questions we get a whole bunch of them. R: What I think happens, which is so neat because this will happen sometimes in- in improvisation too. The first time you ask, you get easy ones, and the second time you ask, you get shocking ones because people are trying to shock and- and then you get past a few more and you ask again and someone gives you some- we've gotten some really good, like chewy good, depth questions. L: Yes R: and I am- I've been enjoying those. I'm not promising those are in this pile today but they're certainly been around and I've enjoyed every one of them. L: Yes R: Yeah. Well, let's see. We did the stairs thing. I threatened you with physical injury. You chewed me out for threatening me for physical injury. We said hello. We did a sound check earlier. L: Yes R: I think we've covered all- see now I'm nervous, I've covered all the bases. L: Well, the question is whether- whether we have had enough banter. R: Ah, banter totals! What are our banter status. Banter status is at, um, I don't know, maybe we're not there. No, we're not there yet. L: Not quite, and I'm not exactly sure what to banter about. R: Where we should- we should find a banter topic. If only we- if only we had a spare set of cards which included bar- Both: banter topics R: yeah. We don't have that so. L: No. R: we have- we have very little to work with L: We've not- we have not requested banter topics yet. R: I don't think we oughta L: I- I think that might be a problem R: Or that could be an episode unto itself. That's- that I'm gonna leave to viewer discretion- listener discretion. Viewer, I'm so visual and- and truthfully I'm very kinesthetic it's- it's- I'm- I'm here in the room L: Yes R: and I'm- it's very weird for me to- to continually get it wrong because I think to myself "Okay, think about it. You're gonna do- you're gonna have a voice for radio today" and then I don't. I- I still make hand gestures. It will always be that way. I've learned to accept it. L: I think it might be easier to just remain constant with the term 'audience' R: Oh because it's got the word audio in it L: It's got the word audio in it, it's listeners, readers, viewers. R: I don't like it. It's got a L: any the- the above. R: No, it's got a formality to it I- I- I detest. It's sort of L: because this is more casual R: Well it's even more than that. When I'm on stage I don't- I don't say "Hello audience" I don't do that. It's "Hello friends", "Hello people", "how you-" L: Fair R: "Ruffians and Malcontents" I mean whatever I come up with I like, but I try- I try very hard to be more L: Not- not just "You there! Audience!" R: "You people, sit down. Shut up and listen to me be funny" Yeah I hope not. Oh that's- that's the nightmare scenario. L: Yeah, never want that. R: No. You know, I'm sure somebody does, but it's not me. I'm- I'm always tickled and- and shocked when people- I think I'm faffing about and then when somebody likes it I am delighted because I'm shocked that anyone else wants that but I remember the dirty secret of humans. We all make silly noises when we're by ourselves and it's so delightful to hear someone make a silly noise in front of us because we go "I do that" L: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. R: It's like when I trip. People- I go, I trip and everybody goes "Oh yeah, I do that too" and it's like that L: Yeah R: It's nice. That's nice. That's a nice note to start on. L: That's a lovely note to start on. R: We're all- we're all in this nonsense together. We're all trapped here in this little tiny closet together. We're all ready for another episode of L:"Two Clowns in a Closet" R: and this, now that the banter quotient is fulfilled, is our first question L: Nice! R: Right! Wasn't that good! L: It felt really very, very natural. R: Yes, that's the secret. If you if you can fake naturalism? It's like sincerity L: No, no, no, no, no naturalism is it's own thing R: Oh, you're right L: I don't suggest- this is not to be googled R: Or, or, on L: I just- ugh, I like to say web search. What did I just do? *sounds of someone getting hit with a hat* L: Ow! R: Put that hat on, it'll make you dumber. You look like you're in a boy band now. L: Thank you R: *laughs* L: All right, for our first question R: We don't- we're just gonna go right back to it? It was that good? L: You did the perfect introduction to it R: and then you ruined it twice L: and then I completely ruined it. R: Twice L: At least twice. R: I feel like you need to ruin one more good one before we get on with it. L: All right, would you like to set me up with another good one? R: I would love to set you up on an excellent conversation brought to you by our listeners who have provided us with questions as we sit down for another exciting episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: and this is our first question L: Thank you, Mister Radio Voice R: You're mocking me now? Oh you did the thing! Thank you, thank you. L: See? R: You- you see what happened is I came in with a little bit of aggression and now you're punchy and it's funny now but it- we should cut that part out to no one hears that that's how we warm up. L: Yes R: We're very nic- I think it's worth mentioning, we are very nice to each other when we're not working. L: We really are R: and we let it all out in front of people it seems *laughs* L: I don't know what it's about, but it's true. We're very chill when we're not here. R: I asked my therapist once- L: or in front of people in general R: I ask my therapist once about this very topic. L: What did they say? R: Nothing, they- they just looked at me like "Who are you and why are you in this office?" L: Had you paid them? R: I hadn't even called up. I just walked in to a therapist's office to see what would happen. L: Ah, that explains it. R: Yeah, maybe I should make an appointment sometime L: That might be beneficial R: Good plan. Good plan. L: In the meantime R: No L: (very high pitched) What? What? R: No. L: (still very high pitched) But, but, but, but, but R: No, I'm not feeling it. L: (still very high pitched) What? R: I'm not feeling it. I want to turn the car around and go again *silence* R: What? L: Vroom, vroom. Question number one. R: No, you can't just "vroom, vroom. Question number one" it doesn't work that L: You wanted to turn the car around. I turned the car around, question number one R: I'm supposed to just accept that. I feel like we've gotten off on the wrong foot. Was it that I came in too strong? 'Cause I can go out there with a theme song and go again. L: If you do that the theme song will play, we'll end up skipping somebody's theme song when we cut it off short and come back in. R: Well, that would be rude as *censored*. L: Yeah we can't do that. R: No. Oh *censored*, I said *censored*. L: Yes, now we're going to have to go back in and you have to insert bleeps R: *sighs* L: Would you like just get it out of your system and do all of them? R: Do all of what? L: All of the swear words. R: I can't have a day like this. I should go again. We should go again. I'm- I'm, I'm calling it. I'm starting again. I can't do it. L: No. R: I'm not feeling it. I'm not feeling the moment. The moment has past. The banter quotient is off the charts. Nothing's going well and I'm sad and upset and I'm not having a good time. L: I have an idea. R: I'm open to your idea L: Clown Yoga R: Oh, Clown Yoga could save everything. I learned Clown Yoga from Marie L: Yes. R: Yes. So for everybody who might be having this sort of stressful day L: Yes R: This might be a useful exercise. So, what you do is, first, you find yourself somewhere comfortable. You can do this sitting or standing. You can even do it while you're walking around, just be careful. I like to not close my eyes, but you have options. So you take, what you do is you get your self centered in yourself. You take a moment. You take a deep breath *both inhale* *both blow a long raspberry* R: and that usually helps. I find it helps. L: Did you find that it helped today? R: I do feel more centered. L: Do you think you are ready to begin? R: You mean, am I ready to L: Answer a question for our podcast? R: Are we doing a podcast? L: We are. We're here R: Oh, we are. L: having come up the stairs, across the room, and into this closet for another episode of R: I'm gonna get to say it! Oh crap, I messed it up. I got too excited. L: You're still good. You're still good. R: I got excited. L: Okay R: because you were gonna say L: up R: "Up the stairs, around the corner, across the hall, into the little closet, for another exciting episode of- L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: but then I missed the chance because I got so excited I tripped over it. L: Would you like another run at it? R: I don't know. I feel like I'm being indulgent at this point. L: I think we're being indulgent to our whims and whimsy constantly. Why should we stop now? R: You make a very good point. Go ahead, set me up one more time. L: All right. R: Okay, I'm ready. L: We came up the stairs R: Yeah L: through a door R: totally L: through your bedroom R: where the books are L: where the books are. Into this closet. R: Very small L: and sat down R: with a bit of work because the knees hurt today L: for another episode of R: "Two Clowns in a Closet" No wonder you enjoy that so much. L: Well done R: Now I'm ready, L: All right. R: Our readers have provided questions L: and I have them on a stack of cards, right here. R: and we're so good, we're not even going to comment on the fact that I just said readers. L: "What does it take for a pop culture reference to actually be funny" R: Ooh, zing. Okay so, putting on the serious hat for a moment. No, I don't need the actual hat. Go ahead and enjoy it. You look great. L: Okay R: You look great. It's warmer in here than I expected. So, what I have learned about pop culture, is that and it's so funny this has come up because I recently have been talking to some friends about fandom and people's engagement with- with fan, like, media and things like that and being fans of media but the- the idea that pop culture is it's own little subculture, if you are a fan of a show it- it has it's own little in jokes, and I had L: Oh yeah R: and I had a particular experience and I think probably help set my tone about this. L: Okay R: So, long ago- I go in and out of, like, I do watch all the TV, all the movies, and then I go through a long period of not. While I chew on that and then maybe I'll watch something, and right now I'm in a 'not watch media' place. So I'm really more meta than I am steeped in anything L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So the- one the last times when I had a big like nothing, I listened to music and that was it was around the time "Friends" was on TV and "Friends" L: So, some time ago. R: Some time ago, yeah, this is like a throughout my life. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: But yeah, "Friends" was on television and it was huge and I had never seen it and I'm not- I'm not speaking like I'm- I'm being pretentious about that. I just had not engaged with it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and because of that, I didn't know any of the in-jokes and of course everyone was walking around saying the hit phrases and I was at a party and- this is so long ago, I'm piecing it together- and somebody set up the joke that the punchline lands "I thought we were on a break" and I didn't know what it meant. I have since seen enough media to know what was going on, but at the time I- I didn't know and so I said "And?" and they repeated it rather than explaining it. They- they figured maybe I hadn't heard the punchline and they dropped it again and I said "What are you talking about?" and they said the words "Friends? We were on our break. I thought we were on a break" and shortly thereafter everybody else jumped in and started saying it together and it was as if a room full of people were chanting this phrase at me L: "We were on a break?" R: "I thought we were on a break! I thought-" and it was just really upsetting. I was like "I'm never gonna watch this. I don't know what it's about but I know I should take a break from it." L: *laughs* R: "That's all I've walked away with from it." and of course there was a joke and there was a thing and there's a story and that's not the important part. The important part was I had a really good taste of what it felt like to be excluded from the joke before I ever really got into- I think I was doing improv by that point but I was- I was really good and fully excluded from the joke and because of that I've always had it in the back of my head that one of the dangers of using pop culture references, especially when we start creating original material, is you're gonna slice your audience by a percentage of people who are familiar with that piece of culture. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and you're gonna- you're going to get them and are going to lose everybody else, and additionally for me, one of the things I think about in clown, is our job is to be as universal as possible. It is, if you think about like, it's a physical theater discipline where we're creating like, human stuff. The idea is that I do something silly on stage and people can feel that. Like I said earlier, they feel that connection that was "Oh, yeah, I've been there" they feel that empathetic, maybe they have their own story about it, but they've- they've found a way to- to connect L: Yep R: to that piece of information and- and because of that, the more universal my work is, the more connected people feel to it. So, consequently, the idea of choosing something that is a narrow niche ends up leaving chunks of my friends out. L: Yeah R: If I think of my audience as my friends, that leaves them out. So, when I'm thinking about the work, I have to think that that's bad. Now, the truth is I don't think it's- I don't think pop culture's bad L: Of course not. R: No, it's great. I will say that I often have noticed that thing about the chanting the catchphrase? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Where you're not actually telling a joke, you're essentially saying "Remember that time we told a joke? L: Ooooh, R: Yeah, it's more like that than it is me having successfully told one and because of that I'm just creating a reminder of a funny thing and so the other thing that happens is things get watered down by that repetition. Now this is separate from pastiche and parody and satire of a thing L: Okay R: Which is it's own set of tools, I mean, those are tools for "I want to reference this to create a mood or an idea" or "I want to talk about this thing". That's a totally different set of theatrical choices L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but if you just walk in there and- and say "Does everyone get this?" Either do or they don't, and for me, I've- I've done a couple of- it's not like I've avoided this. I've done a "Doctor Who" joke onstage L: Yeah R: In a show, we did- in "Almost Five" had a "Doctor Who" joke because it was so much about time, I thought it was just really obvious and I thinking "Yes, this- this will be gotten" and somebody came by after the show said "I don't know what that thing with the scarf and the kicking over the trashcan with the plunger sticking out of it was but it was hilarious. I don't know what that was." I said "It's 'Doctor Who'" they said "I've never seen it. It was still funny" I feel it was one of the rare moments where I won because the joke in the room was solid enough that while it referenced to pop culture idea L: *Affirmative Noise* R: it didn't leave anyone in the room out. So I think, if I was to ask, "When's it funny?" it's when it doesn't leave people out. The far side of that is the best version of this is the smallest version, which is I walk into a room with nothing. I discover something unique in the room I'm in. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and we explore that, and later on I call back to that and we all have a laugh because we were all in the room together. That usually happens in the course of one act or one show L: Yes R: So much of what we- we try to do in the work is we try to make it about that night, that moment, that performance. Even if it's the same show every night, it's always different because we're always trying to include that presence. L: oh yes R: That's where this idea of referential humor is- is genius, because then I can make you remember that you're actually there with me. As opposed to taking you out of that room and ask you if you've seen a TV show. L: Yeah. R: So that's my- that's my diatribe on the topic of when it is and isn't funny. How 'bout you? I didn't put my glasses on before I started ranting. "What does it take for a pop culture reference to be actually funny?" L: You know, it's very difficult to answer this question after you have, because I think R: Go first on the next one L: I agree with you. I think I agree with you. I think just about the only time where a pop culture reference is funny is when it- is when it layers in. The- the- you mentioned that you did a "Doctor Who" bit and someone thought it was funny in the room to despite the fact they knew nothing about whatever it was referencing. I think you need- it needs to stand alone, and then sure, if somebody is gaining an additional level of understanding or fun with it because they also know the reference, they know that there is an additional reference? R: *Affirmative Noise* L: That's great but if you're leaving people out of an enjoyable moment completely? That's a problem, and I know I'm- I'm- I'm playing around with doing- with developing some material about boy bands and, like, I'm fairly confident that at some point I'm going to make a joke repeating a good bye. Which references a very popular boy band song. R: Which I know nothing about. So don't explain it to me, because you're gonna have to make it funny when I'm in the room. L: Exactly it's that I think that there can be a lot of comedy in failing to actually say goodbye in a singular way and do so multiple times because for some reason you had to. I think a lot that could be explored there that could be funny, and for anybody who is familiar with the song, they're going to see that I'm riffing on it. Great, but I have to make sure that despite the fact that I'm referencing this very specific concept, because the entire- like if I'm playing with boy bands, the entire thing is pop culture, R: By definition. L: I need to make sure that what I'm doing is universal enough, on every beat, that it's universal enough that we we're having fun in the room. R: Yeah L: That we are enjoying what we're exploring, and then any additional levels that it brings up for any individual people just add to that experience but they don't have to exist for that to be a fun time. I think that's- that's the key thing on making pop culture references funny. You have to make- you have to make them even more universal than you think that they might be because they're popular culture, because particularly the longer that were dividing up how people are seeing media, because we've seen more- less and less of a unified culture in at least the United States, as time goes on, because we no longer have, you know, there was a point in time where you had three television channels and you could watch TV when it was on, and so R: You've read about this L: I've read about this, R: because- because I didn't live through this either, but I know what you're talking about L: and that created a very unified pop culture. The popular culture was very limited, but very well understood 'cause most people had- were involved in it to a certain degree. It's getting more and more fractured as time goes on. So it's more and more important that you keep things with a universality that is about human experience and not "I saw this particular piece of media" R: Unless you somehow, in the course of your show, explain it. At which point, is it pop culture? L: or is it your experience? R: Yeah, L: What is it? R: Yeah L: That's- that's the- that's the tricky bit. R: Well, you know what? You- you- you said it was hard to follow me but you've just landed a good extra point and I'm very interested in see- specifically how that conversation is explored in the stuff you're playing with. L: We will see how that goes. That's probably- that's probably multiple years in the making but we'll see how it goes. R: We'll see, well, you've answered a question. I've answered question. L: Yes R: We've done it. We're in the show. L: We are in the show. R: It's happening as we speak L: There are more questions to go. R: Well here we go. *silence* L: What have we got? R: I just wanted to, like, have that awkward pause, like we're about to do a sponsorship thing, but we don't do that so that was really good that we just didn't do it. It just felt nice that L: It does feel nice, yes. R: There was a time where, those awkward pauses, that's where you would put a commercial break L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but the truth is what is nice is just hanging out in that pause and going ahh, nothing has to go here. L: We can just exist. It's lovely R: Oh, wait- wait, I got an idea. And now, an awkward pause, brought here by "Two Clowns in a Closet" *Silence* R: That's really nice. L: Was it awkward though? R: No, no, it was just really nice. L: This has been a pause brought to you by "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Didn't we just technically drop a sponsorship of yourself? L: Yes. Yes, we did. R: Well, alright. Nobody's perfect, moving on. So we just- we just went a little deep are you- do you still have some depth left to plumb? L: Yeah *voice cracks* R: Oh good because here L: Wow, I don't know what's going on with my voice, but yes, yes I do. R: Okay. "Why are clown sexy?" L: Not because their voices break. R: They could be L: good R: We promised this at the said the start of the season, that people would get to enjoy this. L: We did, yes, so there you are. R: There it is L: So "Why are clowns sexy?" is the question. I love that that's how this has been phrased. No question of if they are, just asking why. R: I don't understand why this is true, please help me understand. L: So I am at a bit, it- it puts me in a bit of an awkward place because I personally don't find clowns to be particularly sexy. R: I see. L: I have- I have found some clown performers to be very attractive but clowns themselves? Not- not actually my thing but I think, I've- I've- I've- I've put a little bit of thought into this and I think a big part of why many people find clowns sexy is that, assuming that you can put aside the- the perversion of- of the horror clown, of the scary clown R: Please do L: Because I'd put much prefer that you can do that, but assuming that you do. Clowns are safe. Clowns are friendly and inviting and I'm going to use the word attractive here and I don't, initially at least, mean in any sort of sexual way. Clowns do a lot to put out an energy that makes you want to spend time with them. So in that sense, they are attractive. I've heard- I've heard the term magnetic used and I think that there's very small steps from "Person I feel very comfortable near" and "Person I'm invested in experiencing something with" and "Person I'm invested in seeing what they're doing and feeling what they're feeling" to take that and take a couple of small steps you get to a point of- of sexual attraction and of potentially romantic attraction because that is a huge part of how those things work for many people is for- for many, many people it's "This person makes me feel comfortable", "This person helps me feel relaxed", "This person helps me feel comfortable and confident and makes me feel like I'm good" and- and those are the things that for a lot of people makes them feel attraction and comfort and that builds into a sexual or romantic bond and so I think that clowns do at least the first half of that very, very, very well. So it's not- it's not a big- it's not a big step to see why somebody would feel additional attraction there. They're also flirtatious as all *censored*. R: Yeah L: I know that- I mean my clowns have flirted a lot and- and that's, that's going to feel good. R: It does, it does. L: What about you? Why- why- what- what is your opinion on the question of "Why are clowns sexy?" R: I'm- I'm in big trouble here and there is why I'm in big trouble is I'm about quote a seven year old on the topic of sexiness L: Ooof R: Yeah I know and clowns too. So, it's- it's in our professional bio now, So it's one of- it's one of these stories I'm told for years but I have a friend who- who had a kid and after getting to see us perform at one point she asked the kid "So, do you like clowns?" and the kid very much said "yes" and she asked "Why?" which is not something I expected. It's a very smart person asking a very smart kid and the answer was "Clowns are more people-y than people" L: Oh I love that one R: I love it and it's like I said it's something- it's- it's very much of my description of clown they are- they are in every way more human than- than human, more people than people and I think humans are sexy. They can be. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: They can also be awful. They can be flatulent. They can be- they can be vulgar. They can be pleasant. They can be reassuring. They can make you feel safe. They can make you feel scared. It is emotional content. Beyond that, there is the word charisma hanging in the air. L: Ah yes R: You're talking about electricity and magnetism. So, you know, everyone flirts. Babies flirt because they want to make friends and the- the clown puts out an electricity in the room and then when they get everyone's attention with the electricity they turn on the magnetism and bring them towards them. L: Yes R: and that feels good. That feels really good to be in the presence of. I think additionally- we like people who like us and they- you know, my clown loves the audience because they want to be loved, and this- this reciprocal relationship feels good because there's nothing more validating than being validated by someone who's validating you about the fact that they like you. I mean that's- it's pretty obvious in my mind because the- the relationship you have, and it is that, it's a relationship. You build it. You don't walk in the room trying to, you know, trying to win from the get go. You walk in, you meet the audience. Then you get to know them and you have- you turn on the- you turn on the charm, as we say, turn on the charisma and then we make the connection and then we can enjoy each other's company and I think have to get through all of that stuff. We let the clowns be seen before they see the audience and the reason why is people get a chance to get past all of those subconscious biases and pre-loaded values that they have when they see people. That's part of their survival systems and their threat assessment L: *Affirmative Noise* R: you know, systems that are built into people and the exception to this is really interesting. I know of a very well known teacher who I've not studied with, but I've read their books and things and they're- they're fascinating to me and they they once had this exercise and I got to see video of this happen, so I know- I watched it happen. L: Okay R: and they said "Okay, the set- setup is, you're going to walk out on the stage, welcome the audience, and then you're gonna tell them- you're gonna get them excited about the first act" L: Oh, so being- being the host, being the M.C. R: Being the M.C. Exactly. Very simple. And- and every performer that did it, did- they did pretty well. They did- they ran a couple through and it was "Oh yeah, that was- it was nice. That was nice." and the teachers said "I'm going to give one instruction. Okay? But I'm not going to tell the audience what it is." so they went over in the corner and said "*makes whispering sounds* go try that. Same thing but try that" Okay and the performers went offstage. They went onstage and they were- we're all on the edge of our seats. I'm watching this documentary, I'm on the edge of my seat. They were electric. Same thing, so much better and the instruction given was "Go- not like you're a creep, but like you really like them and you're trying to ask them out. The audience, go out there are like you're trying to fall in love with them. Go out there like you're- like you really want to make a love connection, a romantic connection, a sex connection. Put that out there. Not in a creepy, overt way but in the way that is about about charisma about presenting yourself about being flirtatious and these people are bubbly and excited and electric and ridiculous saying the exact same words. That way one change of the choice to put yourself out there became the thing that made them attractive to us as an audience and it was fascinating because you hear about that and you go "I don't know" 'cause you don't want to be pushy, but then to sit in the room and of course it's in a context where it's narrowly focused. It's not- it's not aggressively sexual L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's not- it's not eroticism. It's simply just the- the umph of personality L: Yes R: Watching the dials go up on that as somebody comes out and does the exact same thing but because everything's a little- a little flirtatious. L: Yes R: a little possibility. We like them. We engage with it, because you know, we- you flirt with- if we're not turned off, we flirt back until it's bad and then we say "Okay, thank you for your time" and then if it gets aggressive, we get- get- we get- we get defensive but if it goes well then the opposite is true you know, we- we go- we go and you go, and we go, and you go, and the next thing you know we're- we're very close. L: We're very close R: and so I think a lot of the- the sexiness of clown is that charismatic relationship and it is absolutely not a aggression it's not an assumption where you're reaching out further than you're welcomed. It's the opening yourself up and saying "Hello there" and people say "Yes?" and then you say "Well" and you lean in and- and you start to have that moment and- and it goes well. L: Yeah R: and if it doesn't, and I've been the performer that has walked out there with all of my charisma and for whatever reason I was not a good match for the moment and I couldn't find the match, because you have to meet the audience where they are L: Yes R: and I've had shows where I came in, it didn't feel right and I kept making adjustments till I found the audience and the audience and I had a great time. If you don't, you just give them the space. You go "Okay, that's fine. L: Oh yeah. R: Clearly I'm not for you. That's fine." and you move on and you have to. You have to. So cause- cause the only thing sexier than clowns is consent. L: I am so glad I've got that sound clip. R: Oh yeah, we're recording aren't we? I'm just going L: I love it R: Okay, well there you have it. L: and I agree consent is sexy and I love that somebody asked us this question. R: I do to. Thank you, it was a very sexy question L: Thank you R: yeah. How you doing? L: Pretty good how 'bout you? R: I'm feeling like another question L: That sounds amazing R: Doesn't it though L: Yes R: (in a whisper) It's your turn to read L: Is it? 'cause you didn't hand me the cards R: *laughs* L: Alright, I've got it. R: You've- are you sure? Because I don't- I- I think I bamboozled you with my- with my charisma. Is what happened there. L: I got a little bit distracted R: Did you see my magnetism short circuit my performing partner? Raow? L: They did not see it. R: *gasps* They heard it. They might have even felt it. L: Possibly R: Probably not Both: *laugh* R: *coughs* L: Alright, moving on. Moving on. R: Oh, now you want to move on. I see. Are you- Are you uncomfortable with my flirtatious nature? Hmn? L: No R: Hmmn? L: Hmmn? R: Hmmmn? L: (higher pitched) Hmmmnn? R: You do that better than I do. It's annoying. There's no- I just don't have that register the way you do. Well done L: It's fun R: It is you're- L: I've been doing a lot of exploring R: You have a very silly voice. I enjoy it. Question! L: Questions! Okay R: I'm ready to receive a question from you and our listeners. *Gasp* What a moment! L: Well done. R: I got it right. L: "Have you ever clown bilingually or used clownistry to transcend language?" R: I would like to now admit that my favorite part of this podcast has been finding out all the different ways people conjugate the word clown. L: Clownistry is exemplary. R: I- Bravo. Brava. Bravette? Bravish? I don't know. L: Bravisimo R: I think- I don't know. Brav. Just stop there. Solve the L: Nicely done R: Thank you. I- I love this question because it is one of those ones that is the heart of what I do. When I moved from being a juggler I got into doing a lot of silent performing. I hadn't really- and the truth is and I hadn't really found my voice. I had studied mime and theater early on, dropped it. Got into improv. Got into juggling. Got into silent performing and very much became a silent clown L: Yes R: and mime, but clown. L: Most, most mimes are. R: Well as I've heard it said, that "ballet is the mime of-" wait, no, "Mime is the ballet of clown". L: "Ballet is the mime of dance." R: *laughs* That's right. I got it backwards! L: Well done R: Thank you. Yes the exact quote, and it is- it is by a wonderful cloud is that- it is that "Mime is the ballet of clown" and it's about expressive movement, which very much, if you dig into the teaching about mime and is absolutely that L: Yes R: Yes. So, I started out, a silent performer and of course the minute you're doing that you realize that you're transcending a lot of this- this barrier that's there because you don't need it and you start thinking about the fact that "How much am I communicating without ever saying a word?" and "Am I making sense?" and at first you're not making any sense and then "Can I get away with one word?", "Can I get away with no words?", "is a prop or a gesture?" and you start thinking that way and you start thinking about universality and that's- that's a lot of where, like- again, we're back to it. Where the clown lives. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: is like "How do I include everyone." L: Yes. R: "How do I- how do I continue to find ways to make this work as broadly applicable as possible?" and I've had a lot of situations where I managed to use that silence to bring the only sound we needed which was laughter and I'm always very lucky about that. I also, thinking about different types of physicality and languages, had the chance for a while to work with a- a clown who was a sign language interpreter. L: Ah yes. R: Yeah and so this was- this was really neat because I- I picked up a little bit. I was never very good at it but I- I- I picked up a few things. I'm starting to gesture wildly in the air. But I started to pick up a few things where, you know, I learned thank you. Where you put your hand on your chin and you do like this and it's thank you. L: Yes R: It's- I- I learned that. I know it's also you're welcome. L: Yes R: So it's v- you can do it a lot, is the point. Thank you. L: Thank you. R: and it is- it feels- it feels nice, it's open handed, it's pleasant and you know, I started doing that and I did a couple of other things and silly jokes and I wasn't really thinking about it and I was on a show and I had- I had the flip moment of great comedy of language transcending comedy. So we do this big, unrelated show. Big show and on the way out I noticed that for whatever reason they had sat what I assume was a group that had come to the show L: together R: together, of about twenty or thirty kids. L: Okay R: So probably a school or something, I didn't really think about it. As I'm winging by I just gestured because they had come to the show, it was the end of the show and I'm leaving out the back of the theater, I gestured "Thank you" and they all froze and then all of a sudden all of their hands started wildly flying through the air and I realized they were signing at me at once. I knew enough to know they were signing but I had no idea what they were saying and I went completely slack just standing there and finally they settled down and they all looked expectantly and I shrugged. L: *laughs* R: and they laughed out loud, hands in the air, which of course, hands up over your head, shaking, is applause. So they're doing that and they're laughing and loud and it's funny and I- I- I say than- you know, I gesture "Thank you" and they all back like a joke now, we created this joke is- is the only word I knew was "thank you" "you're welcome" "thank you" "you're welcome" "thank you" "you're welcome" finally I just leave, doing this continually because it was the only way out. I had no idea they were there. They had no idea that I knew a word of sign. They created the comedy by assuming I knew their language, because I had accidentally spoken some of their language L: yes R: reflexively and so it's one of these great moments where it didn't matter because we met- because if you were to- if you were to do the same thing with an approach of someone's language and were to use it mockingly it would be awful L: Oh yeah R: It would be- it would be truly dreadful but because you come into it with this- this playfulness and then the you admit that you're the one who's not knowledgeable. You're, in- in our language of theater "the idiot" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, it's like "Oh I'm yeah- I don't know your language, sorry" and that's funny on like, multiple levels including the possibility that I was a fluent sign language interpreter that was just playing along. It didn't matter. It was funny then. L: Yes R: and I think everybo- I think everybody learned in that moment, had this little play that was- if anybody was watching that, they probably saw me just waving my arms around, the kids waving their arms around and everybody laughing and they probably saw something fun happened but L: they may not have understood R: they may not have understood, so there was an additional layer but there was also nothing that they felt left out of because it was just a back and forth going on L: Yes R: at the end of the show, on the edge of the show, it is a little extra and I- a little extra bonus and I feel like those are good places to be and I feel like that's a great example of this thing where afterwards, years later, I learned to find the clown has a voice. The clown has things to say, and does and then characters that come out of that have a lot to say L: *laughs* R: 'cause that's we're all the deep stuff- because I'm far enough away from me that it's safe to get them out of me, but at that point it's- it's interesting have that ability but also know that you don't need it and you can get caught- I've been brought into teach physicality to improvisers and actors because as good a movement artist as you might be, if you get into that sort of linguistic literal space in your head L: *Affirmative Noise* R: it can get really easy to just get locked there and be a talking head on the end of your body and not using your body to express and so, so much of that is about being able to just move in and out of that space and I think that has a lot of- that has a lot of universal value and- and it continues to be probably the best example I have of different languages because if you think about it, the clown probably speaks body language, emotional language, weird noises, circus skills and they probably their fifth thing is probably they speak English, if they do. L: Yes, whenever their- whenever the performer's native language is R: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The- the idea being they are so far away from that being sort of a native language L: Yeah R: That they're having an interpretive layer going on as well. I think is a good way to look at it. Just because you're so in- you're so in your body and in the moment L: Yeah R: Okay, so there's your answer. Have I done it? Have you? Have you? L: Um, yes. Yeah, I think so. You know, I think it's- I think it's actually very funny *thumping sound* R: I just threw the cards down L: Cards down and it hit the R: there was a whump and I'm sorry about the whump. I'd like to take a moment and say this whump was brought to you by my clumsiness. My clumsiness, the source of great universal comedy that interrupts Liam from making a point. L: Yes. So, I don't know that I had a point that I was making. R: I hope you did, you're supposed to be answering the question about universality and bilingual- L: There's a difference between answering question and making a point. R: Is there? L: Yes. R: I hope so L: So R: 'cause you got nothing L: On the question of "Have I ever clowned bilingually or used- or used clownistry to transcend language?" You know, I heard your story about the group of kids who spoke ASL and that- that- that- that you just told R: Yeah L: A long time ago and R: I do tell it when I teach L: Yes and so- so I- I learned it and I have off and on since I was in high school tried to lo- learn sign language R: Tried? L: tried to learn American Sign Language. Tried, because I am not the best at sticking with some projects and language is very difficult to acquire if you don't have some people to work with and I didn't so I've- I've only ever learned a few little bits and pieces here and there R: *Affirmative Noise* L: but I have on multiple occasions taken it on and gone "Yes! I'm going to go learn ASL" and then not succeeded but when I heard this story from you I realized that I would- that I wanted to be able to, if we should run into either a group or an individual who spoke primarily in sign or who was deaf or hard of hearing that I wanted to make sure that we could at least introduce ourselves or be introduced, because I was- at the time I was often working as a roustabout. So I was often the person in a fancy cost- the fancy outfit vaguely in charge of wrangling all the other people. So I learned how to sign the word "clown" R: Which is this L: Yes, we are on an audio stream. R: I said it and immediately, I was so excited and then I realized I blew it again. L: It is a gesture that that clearly symbolizes a round nose with a- with a movement of roundness around the nose. That doesn't explain what it was but it- that is a way to describe it. R: We will include a show note here. L: Yes I also R: I'm learnin'. I'm learnin' L: I also learned the ASL for "circus" which is apparently not very universal, so for most cases you're going to fingerspell it, but the one word that does exist for it is actually a combination of the word for "clown" followed by a two hand claw gesture clawing gesture that I think means "lion"? R: So it's L: So it's clowns and lions as a combination R: Which has been most of my experience L: means "circus" in American Sign Language but I learned how to say "clown" I learned how to say "circus". I learned how to spell Circus Freaks. I learned how to spell, all of the clown characters that I portrayed at the time, I learned how to fingerspell their names. I learned how to fingerspell the names of all of the other performing characters in the company R: oh wow L: At the time R: I didn't know that. L: because I knew that I was likely to be standing there as a roustabout and I wanted to be able to, if a kid looked confused because they didn't have the ability to understand when we introduced ourselves verbally, I wanted to be able to let them know that that person over there is called this and they're a clown. I knew I wouldn't be able to say much more than that because I just wasn't building up to that much but I wanted to be able to say that much and make sure that someone felt included. As is so often the case, the minute you actually prepare for something like this it never comes up again ever. R: oh no. L: So I actually have not gotten to- gotten to do that and at this point my skills are really rusty and I'm not sure I could still do it. R: All the characters have changed too, so you- L: Exactly R: You'll relearn- you'll relearn when it comes time to L: but R: to mess with it L: it was- it was something I actively worked to make sure that I would be able to do, but in- in situations we have- that I've actually been in that have been multi-lingual, I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before but every time I hear the word "payaso" or, as was appropriate with how I was presenting at the time "payasita" R: You are very small L: I knew it was going to be a good day, because there is a strong Mexican and Hispanic tradition of clown R: and it's it's own thing, we've talked about it, it's it's own thing. L: Which is it's own thing but it means that a lot of Hispanic and Spanish speaking people will come up to us ready to play and very excited that we're there R: My favorite part about working with any audience other than American audiences is their pleasure in seeing clowns and whereas I feel like in lot of times in a lot of American audiences you have to chip away at all of the assumptions before you get to that place, that place exists but I think it's under a lot of emotional armor. L: I, I also think is a little bit much to- to exclude this group of people from the category of "American audiences" R: Well that's fair L: There is- I mean, there is definitively a white American culture that does not appreciate clowns to the same degree R: And that is- that is, I think, a lot of what I'm speaking to. L: but- but this, it's- it's always fantastic and- and, so yeah, I'll hear a parent tell their kid, I don't speak enough Spanish to peak- to- to pick up everything that they're saying but I do know the Spanish word for "clown", and I can pick up enough to realize that the kids are being told that this is a clown and it's going to be a good time and being able to realize at that moment that I just don't want to spend my energy on the linguistic side of things. I don't want to spend my energy trying to use words, because R: You use actions L: because I'm using actions and- and we're all prepared to have a good time, so it's very easy to at that point. R: You know, one of the things that I just thought of while listening to the story L: *Affirmative Noise* R: When the Spanish speaking family says you know "This is the payaso and we're going- we're gonna- this means it's gonna be a good time" that's the introduction the child gets to clown L: Yes so it's a big deal R: How different that is in some English speaking American white audiences where it's "That's the Clown, they're gonna be weird. Don't be afraid okay?" L: Oh totally different, yeah. R: That's like a totally different- L: Totally different. R: Why are one of these days better than the other? If I was told "This is a person who looks weird, don't be afraid." All I'm gonna think, in the back of my head is "Is there something I should be afraid of?" L: Although in fairness- in fairness, I do not speak enough Spanish to know that these families have not said R: "Don't be afraid" L: "Don't be afraid" so R: I- L: I can't call on that but I will say I've never seen the same expression R: Yeah L: of R: wary L: the same microexpress- expression of fear from R: *laughs* L: being told "Don't be afraid" on any of those exchanges that I do when I know that they're being told "Don't be afraid" but- but, you know, I think it's- it's very interesting. I have had a history of having friendships with people whose language I don't speak. I got- I was very very lucky in my youth, when I was in elementary school age, I had a next door neighbor who was brand new to America. Their parents had moved here, I believe for work, and I honestly have forgotten where they were from. I think they might have been initially from Korea? But I didn't know at the time, I was seven. What I knew was that my new friend who lived next door to me and her younger brother didn't speak English well and that I didn't speak their language at all, and while I did try to spend a little time trying to communicate that I would like to learn their language, that didn't end up panning out. But what I did find is, you don't have to use a lot of language to play tag or house or realize that both of the younger brothers have built a fort and say you're not allowed in it, so we're gonna go build a fort over here that we're allowed in and they're not allowed in. Like, those sorts of childhood games happen, whether you have a lot of language for it or not. R: Play is universal. L: Play is pretty universal. I mean, you do need to be able to find ways to communicate, because you need to make sure that nobody feels- as we pointed out, consent is sexy. Consent is fun and good and you don't have anybody feel like something has happened that they're uncomfortable with and they don't have language to express, but past that, you don't need a lot and so I've been very lucky that I've had that experience multiple times throughout my life. Where I've been in a situation where it's like "Ah, okay. We're just going to not worry about language today because it's not gonna work out. We- we don't know enough of it and we're not gonna learn it in the next two hours, so we're just gonna have fun with the time that we have" and so being able to bring that, and it works so well in clown. As you pointed out the physicality of clown and the clarity of clown really does move past language barriers R: Sure L: very, very well. Sometimes it doesn't move past some cultural barriers R: Of course not. L: because timings are different or- or what you're used to or expecting is different but even that can be funny. R: I think, the interesting thing, all of our clowns speak toki pona, which is a made up language. L: Oh true, yeah. R: and so there's this additional layer where sometimes we will create the experience of that disconnection with the audience, so they are brought to a place where they can interact with us without having to find the right thing to say. One of the most powerful things about not using language, since language can be sliced up to have so many nuances, if you're trying to be universally playful and inclusive and- and- and good, it's really interesting that you can have- you can create by letting, rather than making someone else feel like the outsider, you can become the outsider who doesn't really have the tools to communicate in a- in a nuanced way and therefore things have to be simple. So people go "Well, we'll- we'll simplify things for you" and then suddenly they're playing with the clown as much as the clown is playing with them and you have- you get to have these- these really nice moments and I've seen- I've seen the clowns walk and- and have conversations in toki pona or- or in gibberish or- which is very much like Commedia and Grammelot where, because the shows were traveling to different countries where they didn't speak English, they would just recast the show in gibberish and not have to worry about language rather than rewriting the show L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's the same idea. We come in and we don't speak any of the languages locally. We're speaking something that you kind of get the sense of, because of the emotional content and we point at something and say "blah blah" and then we both know that "blah blah" means "that shoe over there" it will forever be my example in this podcast that that shoe over there is the one I'm talking about because it's, when I point in the middle of the room, what I'm pointing at. L: Hey, I think it's the shoe that I- I did the cup song with R: It is. It is the shoe you did the cup song with because it's right there. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That's what I'm saying. The point is, we get a universal thing and we don't need to know- we don't need you know the correct word or the appropriate word for it, we need to the word we're using right now if we're in a place of respect and playfulness L: Yes R: and that's the most interesting thing about, like, language as a jump off point. There's a lot of ways to interpret the word "language" and there's a lot of ways to interpret the concept of the com- the shared language. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So, I like that. Question sunk. L: Yes R: Done, we sunk the basket. L: Well done R: That's how sports L: I think it's- I think it's R: right? Basket yeah? L: Basket's one of them, yes. R: I always think about making a basket when I'm writing because I crumple up the paper in frustration and then when I make the basket by throwing in in the trash can L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I- I'm much more happy than I was with whatever I was writing that I failed at. So when I say "it's sunk" it's because I've accepted the failure and I'm moving on to something good. It's a good thing for me. L: Oh, nice. R: It's like a weirdly inverted thing for me. So yeah. L: What have we got? R: Are you ready? L: Yes I am ready. R: Okay, this is- this is tough because you have to put on your- your imagination hat. L: Well luckily you've already put a hat on my head and it's a good one. R: It is. I know. It's my hat. Why do you always steal my hats? L: In this case, I did not steal it. I even tried to return it. R: You end up wearing my hats more than I do, I think. L: I do a lot of wearing your hats and in some cases I have stolen them. This is true. R: If I'm ever looking for a hat that's gone missing, I check your closet, you know that right? L: That seems reasonable. R: That's what I do. Alright. Imagination hat metaphorically engaged "What future do you wish for clowning?" L: Oh that's a big one. R: It is, and specific. L: That is. Okay, I think it's fair to say that I don't- I do not have quite the worldliness that you do, I haven't- I haven't done clown internationally but I have done it in North America, technically international 'cause I've been in Canada but I've been- I've been stuck on the continent R: Stop- Stop worrying about it, just tell the story. You don't need- you don't need to minimize yourself to tell the story. Just tell the story. L: I'm making a wish and I'm making context R: Oh, I see L: for where that goes. R: Bippity-bopity-boop, got it. L: Wow R: What? It's a wish. L: Yes, I'm- I'm hoping you can grant it. Or at least help. So one of the things that I've seen pretty consistently, unfortunately, in the workshops I've attended and the places I've gone, and the parts of clown I've seen is that, while I think this is already starting to improve, it is still overwhelmingly a cis/het white male game R: You are absolutely not wrong. I have more to say on that when you spin it around, which is not defending it because you are- you are not wrong but I got more to say. L: but- but particularly, as where I've said it- where I've seen it, that's what I've seen is that- I think it- it definitely has that feeling of there are enough white women involved that you can tell that an effort has been made to make people feel a little bit more comfortable and that someone somewhere went "There is no reason girls can't play too" and that's good, that's a good first step. There's- I have seen some black clowns, I have only seen black clowns performing in we- we had one person who is black who I know was part of this company at one point R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and I have seen black clowns performing in a predominantly black circus, one that comes from a history of black performers. Other than that, personally, my personal experience? I haven't seen any and I find that deeply concerning because that's a large number of people who are not being represented in the work that I would like to see represented and I know that in some cases there is- that there are different traditions culturally R: yes L: In clown from a lot of different backgrounds and that we do have a history with a lot of separation, both intentional and horrible, and less intenten- intentional and more about comfort. Both things are in play and I know that- that respecting people's cultural heritage and what they're bringing in that way is important but I would love to actually see more people playing together. I would love to get to see places where, because I don't- I don't know what exactly is still keeping people from feeling comfortable taking a clown workshop or being involved in clown but clearly something is and that means that people are doing something that's making people feel uncomfortable and I- I- I hate that idea. So, what I would wish for clowning is for more people to feel comfortable engaging with it, both- both as an audience and as performers and learning through it because it is an amazing experience even if you never go on to have a- a career in clowning. Learning some clown is an amazing experience and I want to see that opened up for more people and I want to see that being a comfortable place from more people to express themselves and so, yeah if I had one wish that- that would be- what- where it would be. More- more- more clowns of color, more various flavors of queer clowns. I know that that's definitely happening more in Europe and some other places is that in many places clown is a very queer game. It's not as much here and I would love for it to be. R: Okay. L: But yeah, so that- more- more representation of- of all flavors of minority groups. R: You'll spin this around for me yeah? L: Yeah R: You ask me about my wish? L: Yeah what's- what's- what- "What future do you wish for clowning" R: First of all, while you- you intimated my great international experiences, I will say that it is absolutely true in- in North America it is a cis/het white male game and I love punching that in the eye every chance I get. I'm glad you're here, when I've worked with people who- with different, diverse backgrounds I'm glad we were able to include them. You know, I have a lot of privilege and- and any time I get to swing it around and make places a little more open, a little more weird, I'm gonna do it. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So that I agree with you. L: Yeah R: and I think you- you eloquently covered many of the problems that- that have- you've presented them, whether we're seeing cultural thing stay separate out of fear of appropriation or because they are- they belong to a tradition, that's- or somebody's school- that's a different discussion, and it- and- more L: It's very nuanced R: it is- it is and I'm and I'm thinking about it L: and it needs be dealt with in a nuanced and careful way R: and I'm- I'm right now, I'm- I'm reading about the history I'm- I'm researching the history of a clown who was able to connect with Native American and indigenous clown shaman work L: Ah R: Specifically, and I'm reading about this and I'm just barely beginning to study it and I'm very excited about it, because it is a whole different voice that I haven't seen in much of the work that I've been trained in. I'm familiar with it from outside that work, from doing my own thing, research on things that interest me L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but seeing it within the context of clown theater, I'm very excited. So like, you know, there are- there are places where you see that it worked it's way in and you'll see the history of that, but it's again, it's a mess. I think you are- you absolutely covered, you know, what- what my- you know, the- the wish for just a- a radical diversity and inclusion in the work on every level L: Yes R: Putting on my teacher's hat, with regards to that, I will proudly say that I work really hard to make that happen in the spaces I'm in, whenever there's a possibility. I do want to tag on the back that I think American circus is, by nature of what it is, really privileged. L: Yes R: and- and because it- it if you're- if you're not from a longstanding circus family, the only way you're getting in there is by having the money to go to classes and the money to go to special schools and it's if- if you don't have those privileges it's an incredibly difficult thing to access and I want that to change. I learned juggling on the street from other hobbyist jugglers on the street, at parks and I- I then, when I got to where I was going in the circus, you know, I had to find a way to- to make that happen L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I was lucky enough to be able to. To get the training I wanted and it takes- it's- it's a lot of work. I know I had the tools to access it and I want to make that more universally accessible. All of that said, and all of that agreed with, I see another thing that I'm going to make as my wish for this. L: Okay, yeah. R: Just, just because I saw something L: We got two, two wishes. Let's- let's use them. R: That's what I'm saying. L: Yeah R: You may have noticed that we've spent some time in the house. L: Yeah, I noticed some of that. R: Yeah, yeah. The last handful of years have been a very much- a- a homebody life, not just in the closet but just we're- we're not- we're not out in the world and it would be easy, as the performer, to say "Oh, I want my ego back in the world, doing it's job" that's not where I'm going. One of the things I've seen profoundly, and we were seeing the beginnings of this prior to the pandemic, is a growing isolation and disconnection from other people where people are so locked off from each other now- now in need and circumstance and before in- in ideology and in ongoing in so many different ways people are very much separated and one of the things that I've- I've said and I've said, you know, in telling stories here, the clown is very good at bringing people together L: Yes R: and then stepping back and letting them play sometimes L: True R: and I think, you know, an audience is a- is an organism that comes because a bunch of individuals come together and they sort of gel at the edges to comment on the thing they're seeing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I've seen some spectacular examples where that did really wonderful good, and the other thing that I think that we do, so well, is we engage with people and encourage them, probably because the can't think their way out of doing otherwise, into playing and into being, and into being with people. So when it and it is- it is premature, in my opinion, to say "Right now! Get out there and play-" that's not what I'm "-together" that's- that's not it. When the time comes, I hope, I wish that the clown realizes that one of the callings will also be to remind people to connect and to play because I think we're- I think we really need it. L: Yeah. I think that's a really good one. R: So *chef's kiss* wish. Your wish, my wish, our wish. For you, for the world, those- those are good L: Yes R: Those are good. L: Alright R: For clowning in general. L: Yeah for clowning in general. I think those are both very, very good. So, I think that takes us on to our next question. R: Yeah? L: Our next question is R: I'm ready L: "What's the funniest fart you've ever heard?" R: It always comes back to this. We- we start talking about universality and inclusion and being human and it always comes back to farts, doesn't it? L: It does. R: It always does. Alright. So, it's no secret, I told the story here that I've been uncomfortable about farts and I've- I've sort of embraced them as a comedic thing because they are ultimately undignified, human, and wonderful. I do think that our, you know, you can you can talk about the big meta of the- the- of the idea but- but it's about which one I've heard that's the funniest L: Yes, "What's the funniest fart you've ever heard?" and it does not specify on stage. R: I'm glad because the one I thought of is not a stage fart *laughs* L: Okay R: because I- again I don't actually think fart jokes are that funny. I think the idea of them is hilarious because at the end of the day for- we will- we will say speeches that will change the world. We will move mountains. We will invent cures. We will do all- and then we'll fart and it's just dumb that our butts make weird noises. *laughs* It's just weird. I'm gonna get in trouble and I'm only going to have- I'm only going to avoid retribution by not naming the names. I'll name the crimes but not the names L: Okay R: Okay so a performer I worked with L: Alright R: A performer I worked with told me that they did not fart. That it was vulgar, inappropriate and not a thing they did. They were not a clown, and I said "Okay, that's- you know, that's your truth" it came up in a conversation when I was talking about fart jokes and that- that's- that was the conversation was had and I was like "Okay" and I didn't really think much about it other than the "Wow that's a really up- you must be very uptight." I ended up sharing a room with them L: *Affirmative Noise* R: on a gig L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I must tell you, that once they went to sleep, after their uptight selves went to bed, they were able to lift the covers L: *snort* R: with the amount of audible visceral flatulence that must have been stored up throughout a day of denial. L: *laughs* R: and I mean like windows rattling, the blinds moving, the lights are flickering. We're talking the all-farter. You know, just like- just every fart you didn't like- every little one- they- their truth- they believed it and it was true, until they went to the land of dreams propelled by a rocket of their own butt. L: *laughs* R: that is- that is the truth. The funniest thing because it was so- when you- when you meet someone who seems very together, your initial instinct is to believe it, and you get- you start comparing yourself to that and you get into that- and I'm pretty cured of that trap these days, but at the time I was- I was like "You know, I'll never- you know, I can't even not fart" and then to find out, nope, even this together person was blasting the covers across the room, and peeling the paint. L: Wow R: and I'll stop there before I indite myself completely but I laughed- I laughed very, very hard to myself and enjoyed the ethereal music that was brought into the room. *snort* R: How about you? "What's- what's the funniest fart you've ever heard?" L: "The funniest fart that I have ever heard?" R: In any context it seems L: The one that's coming to mind is actually not a fart. It is a- it is a synthetic fart. R: A synthetic fart? L: A synthetic fart, a fart joke, onstage that was actually a early rendition of a fart joke that we've mentioned on this podcast before. R: Oh, the most expensive fart joke I've ever performed L: You've talked about the most expensive fart joke you've ever performed R: Yes L: Which we had used before that. R: We were workshopping it at shows. L: We were workshopping at some different shows. R: Okay L: and we had an event, and I could not even tell you what the event was. I know where it was but I don't- I don't know what it was. I know that there was a very small stage on this larger event and they did the thing where they- they sort of start- stopped the party to have us go on stage which we're never a huge fan of, but we made it work R: did we? L: I think so this time R: *laughs* L: I think so this time because you brought up an audience member, after much, much shenanigans setting up a whoopie cushion on a chair R: An oversized like two or three feet across L: Yes a very large whoopie cushion on a chair and we- you got it all ready and there was all this build up and you went and found an audience participant to come up on the stage and sit on the whoopee cushion. I think there may have even been a couple of like pre- this moment whoopee cushion farts as like warm up farts R: before the big L: before the big one R: the big one L: and you put it on this chair and you invite this audience member up to sit on the whoopie cushion. R: Upon the throne as it were L: and the whoopee cushion exploded R: like a gunshot L: It broke. I don't know what happened but the rubber had broken down and it popped. R: It didn't- it didn't fart at all. L: It didn't fart R: it went off, sounded like a gunshot *laughs* L: it popped. But but it was the funniest moment and everyone thought it was hilarious. I don't know how it wasn't traumatic for anybody, because it- by all rights- R: I think because we had so much attention on the moment L: Yeah by all rights, it should have been, but it wasn't. It was just funny. It was so funny that I think you just walk- I must have been rousting this one because I don't remember participating in the shenanigans but you just walked around the event R: With a torn, yeah L: With a broken whoopee cushion for an extended period of time because it had been this moment that everyone had witnessed together that was such a surprise and was so funny. R: I have photos somewhere of the side of that thing being blown out and it shredded like a cartoon shark had taken a bite out of it. I don't know what happened. What I can tell you is that I treasured that object and I don't know what happened to it. I kept the blown out gigantic dead Both: whoopie cushion R: for years and I don't know what happened to it. I'm actually kind of sad now because it's a great- it's a great story. L: but it was- oh, that was a moment and I- I don't think I will ever forget it. R: Things don't always go the way you want. Sometimes they're just *raspberry sound* and sometimes they are a big bang. L: And on that note, that is the end of this episode. R: Oh, that's fantastic. You know what I loved about today? L: What did you love about today? R: Okay, real talk. We walked in here, I wasn't feeling super well. I was a little grumpy, like a lot of people are going through. You get a little grumpy and then you- you go "rrrr" and then you relax and you take a breath and you have a silly moment L: Yes R: and you- and then we had a great conversation. You find the flow L: Yeah, yeah R: you find the rhythm L: you calm down and you just chill out and have fun. R: and I hope everybody went on the journey with us and feels good that they went with us. L: Yes I do hope so. R: I hope so and I thank you so much for listening along and you for telling some stories and answering some questions very well. L: Well thank you for telling stories and answering some questions, and thank you all for sending the questions in. R: Yes L: We couldn't do this without you. R: It would- it wouldn't work L: No, it would just be us faffing about, which I- we still haven't received any- any indication that people would like us to stop R: And yet, you feel the edges of- the edges of love and tolerance all the time. L: But we know that it couldn't- that couldn't just be it. So thank you all for continuing to send questions because it- it makes this happen. R: because without the questions this would just be L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: as opposed to this wonderful podcast called L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: and this has been L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: I like how every one of those was a little different. That was nice. L: I tried it- I try to shake it up, yeah. R: Thanks. Thanks for shaking it up. I have a final treat for you today. I'd like to introduce you to another theme song remix that we received. I'm going to open this door, it's gonna pour into the room. I hope you enjoy it. Ready? L: Ready *door opens* *Theme song plays*