----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 16 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2023-02-21 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Liam: Hello Russ: Hello there. How are you? L: I'm doing well. How are you? R: I am experiencing what may be described as a warm closet feeling L: It- it's very warm in here today. R: It's a lovely- you know, it's a lovely thing to have a warm loving place but when that translates to temperature? It becomes a different vibe. L: Cozy is still good. R: And we're just above cozy we're- we're- in- it's warm L: Yes we're in it's very warm. R: Which reminds me of the fact that as we do this wonderful strange process, we are- we're- we're gonna- about be too warm to be in here. L: Yeah it's definitely looking like the weather is taking a turn towards the warm R: I didn't know our seasons were seasonal. I mean, I know this is our second season but I didn't realize that we were in fact seasonal. L: Oh yeah, that's why we stopped last season. R: I thought we finished all the questions. L: No, we still had some. R: You don't tell me. So, I don't know. L: Oh we still had a couple of questions, that's how I knew we were gonna do a second season. R: Is that why you were so confident? L: Yes R: Now I feel really strange. Well, do we- L: We still had some questions. R: I know we still have questions now though, 'cause we talked about it. L: We definitely still have questions now. R: So L: I think would probably- I think it might make sense R: Okay L: Last season we did eight episodes R: Okay L: This is the eighth episode of this season, whatever number that is. R: Oh, I can't be done. I can't be done yet. I'm having too much fun. L: I'm not ready to be done R: No. L: today R: Okay. That would have- if you had sprung that on me, I would have freaked out. L: No, no, no, because we've noticed a couple of- of questions that we wanted to save for end of season questions and those are not in our list today. R: That's true L: but I think since we had- our first episode was so not the standard way that we do things, it wasn't an answering questions episode, it was a catching everybody up episode R: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. L: With this season, I think it might make sense for next episode to be the final episode of the season. R: I will- I will begrudgingly accept that and I will- I will say that I know from our discussions we have more stuff, so I guess that means we're announcing that there will, in fact, be L: A season three R: of "Two Clowns in a Closet" L: and welcome to R: Wait! Wait. I didn't do the whole thing! We normally do a whole thing where L: Okay, okay R: And we forgot it once and so we felt so bad about it, and we get letters that people- we literally got someone who sent, not a letter, but they sent us a message saying they like the banter. L: Okay so, we've clearly started off with a little banter about the R: This isn't L: podcast itself R: the- yeah this is banter, this is meta banter L: Yes R: this isn't the actual banter. It would- it would be L: So now that we've caught everybody up R: on the meta banter L: on the meta banter R: We can begin the banterment. Do I have to leave and come back again? L: Oh no, no, no, no, no, because if you leave it'll start the theme song R: Oh yeah now they've L: and we've just played it so let's R: Okay, okay. I understand. So we are- we are stuck. L: We are stuck. R: We'll make it work. We'll make it work so L: but we can still start from the top R: We'll start from the top- From the- well, from the top of the stairs, down the hallway and into this little room, where we have another episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: I didn't think we were going to get there L: and we did R: It's so good. So we're here. L: We are here. R: We do have questions L: We are overly warm R: We are overly warm and let me be clear that we're going to- we're- we're not gonna rush, but we're going to get through these- these two more episodes and then we're going to come back when it cools off at the end of the summer and L: Yes R: and we'll do, I think we're going to do the same thing, we'll do the catch up episode and then L: Yeah, We'll do a catch up episode. R: Yeah L: I'm sure things will happen between now and then. I don't know what they are, but I'm sure that- things do tend to happen. R: Turns out with months, sometimes something occurs. In the meantime no more meta banter. I'm putting down my very large clowney foot, here it comes. *clapping sound* R: No more meta banter. Now we can only banter banter. L: Your very large large clowney foot sounds a lot like a hand clap. R: You're gonna bust my chops on foley work? L: Yes R: Wow, that's fair L: We've been very honest with our audience about what sounds are or are not happening in this closet R: We've gotta maintain the honesty of us L: I feel like maintaining the honesty is important. R: Okay so, the dripping sound you hear is me sweating and the- *laughs* and that was a hand clap. Have I been honest enough? Can we move forward? L: Yes R: Okay thank you L: Yes we can R: Okay, I'm- I'm excited it's a- it's a good day, beyond the warmth. Oh, sorry went meta. I'm L: I don't think that's meta. I think that just R: that's here L: just where we are R: that's here L: that's just real. R: Yeah, it's very real but it's- it's nice because it has been- it has been very cold and it just warmed up and in- in the place we currently are it warms up all at once. L: It does R: it sneaks up L: That's a thing it does and sometimes it gets cold again but I don't expect it to this time for some reason. R: We'll- we'll see. We'll see but in the meantime, we've made it here. I was serious, we did receive a nice message that people said they liked the banter. L: Yes we did. R: I always worry that this is not what people want. L: Oh but they were talking about- they were talking about season one banter. R: When we weren't good at it yet. L: So they haven't- they haven't even heard season two banter. R: How far, it can go on L: I know R: Oh you- you've grown in your banterbility? L: So have you. R: Thank you L: We have both progressed together. R: Yes, we- we- we meander. We faff. L: and we banter. R: That- you can't make a compound word out of all of that can you? L: mmmm R: mebanfaffing L: mebanfaffing? R: mebanfaffing L: mebanfaffing. R: It's not bad L: I don't- I don't hate it. R: I don't- I don't love it, but I don't hate it L: I don't know that I love it but it's- it's- it's a thing. R: We'll workshop it L: Okay that sounds good R: We'll workshop it, and in the meantime I am excited to be here 'cause I know for a fact we have more questions. L: Yes we do. I am currently holding a stack of cards. R: You did. Which is good because I came up here, I managed to remember my glasses but because it was so warm no hat- We- we just went for it. L: We did just go for it. Did we fix the technical issue from last episode? R: Are we doing meta banter again? You're gonna- you're mocking me. I made a mistake when recording and almost lost an entire episode and I am ashamed but I then, using several hours of my life, recover the episode and we didn't lose anything at all. L: Correct. R: but you wanted to take the time to still jab me in the ribs about it. L: Well I know that many of our friends knew that that happened because you shared it on the internet R: but you wanted to make sure it went on the permanent, transcribed, archived record that I screwed up. L: Well, I'm pretty sure that I- I put it on the record when I screwed up. So yes. R: Oh okay. Yeah, totally yeah. L: Because I completely failed to- to record an episode last season. R: That's true. So we've now- we- we've now done it. We're- we're both in the club. L: Yes we're both in the club of having- having significantly R: destroyed an episode L: But you at least recovered yours. Mine- I didn't plug in a- a microphone so, R: was (muffled voice) "'Two Clowns in a Closet', is this an episode of 'Two Clowns in a Closet'" L: No, it just didn't record anything. R: Oh, we didn't get the muffle through the-? Wow L: *Negating Noise* R: Wow L: Nothing R: Wow L: there was nothing. R: That's a very long silence. L: It was a very long silence. R: I'm never going to mock you for an awkward pause again after knowing that there was an hour long an awkward pause at one point. L: So now that we have both been mocked for our technical inexpertise R: I think it's important to remind everybody that you can do something really badly and still accomplish things L: Oh yeah R: That's- that's the joy, for me this- this whole process has been the joy of, actually doing- just knocking something out. L: yes R: We, you know, we- we- we talk a bit about the- the topic sometimes and we- we come in and- and we just do it and we try to make it work and we definitely do it in one take. There's no substantial- L: Sometimes things get cut a little bit but it's R: Yeah, it's no substantial- there's no substantial edit and I think the idea is to- is to do something that is a little- a little raw and shareable. I think that's more fun than- a lot of the work we do ends up, over time, becoming fairly polished L: yes R: and I think it's good to go back and strip everything away and enjoy the- the- the rough edges of things because that's where- that's where the humaness is. L: Yes R: and I, as you know, I'm a big proponent of the humannisses. Human- humani- humanis- humanos- humanosit- humanani- humanahumanahumana. I think almost got humanity in there and then I messed it up. L: I think- I think you almost did. Yes. R: I almost did. I'll go back. L: It was very close R: Yeah, we'll go back in edit that out. It'll be fine. L: Has anyone noticed we never go back and edit out the parts that you say "we'll go back and edit that out"? R: I think they know. L: I think they R: I think by now they're L: I think they know R: maybe the- the- to the bloom is off the rose. Maybe they're- they're tired of it. Maybe the- maybe they're sad and they don't- maybe they don't wanna hear it anymore. L: I doubt that R: I do- I doubt it too because it they keep telling us L: because if they don't want to hear it anymore, they're not here and R: That's the coo- I think the coolest thing about this, specifically, and I'm going to tell everybody this. The coolest thing about this is that I record this and a try to get, in between the faffing about, I try to get a few ideas out L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I always assume that the- I'm just doing this for my own record keeping, you know, and emo- emotional creative process and then someone comes and talks to me about it. They go "Oh, I listened" and- and I am- I'm never not blown away when someone has actually listened to this. Thought about it. I'm so grateful that we're doing something where people seem to care and I think- L: Yeah R: you know, and- and- and that- I joke about it, but it's- it's a big deal L: and it is brilliant. I- you know, you sometimes forget how much these things are opt-in R: Oh yeah. Yeah, because no one- no one is listening to this unless they've sought it out. That's something we sort of designed into it as "It's here if you want it" L: Yep "It's here if you want it" R: No- everything else can push you and- kind of pushes at people and I kind of like that you come to this and you grab some and you go on L: Well, admittedly, anybody can play it though so R: Oh, so if there's somebody aggressively drive- you hear a car going outside, it's what gave me the idea- driving around with a big speaker blasting "Two Clowns in a Closet" aggressively at people? L: We did not do that intentionally R: No, that just worked out L: *laughs* R: Ah yeah, you can, if you listen, there's a- a truck going by so the- the idea that that maybe when they turn the corner they're- they're blasting really calm soothing discussions about clown theater at people aggressively. That's weird L: That's just funny R: That's just weird. I do know though that somebody sent us a video of playing "Two Clowns in a Closet" to their chickens. L: Over short wa- over short- short wave? R: I- L: Over radio R: Over radio Both: Over radio L: yeah R: So we've both been on the radio and some of our fans are chickens. L: That happened in season one R: It did L: It was brilliant. R: It's still meaningful to me to know these things. L: Yes definitely R: and we find things out later, because we'll find out somebody's been listening or went back to the beginning and listened. We never know. L: Yes R: I'm sure everyone who has ever done a podcast has had this experience? At some point? L: I would assume so yeah R: You have to assume, but it's all new for me L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's good to just sit and talk for a minute. L: It is really nice to sit and talk for a minute, but we do have this stack of question here, we should probably get into R: I wondered if there was a format to- Surprise! We chucked the format and we're just gonna sit in the closet and talk for- no. L: No R: Please don't do that L: No, no, no. R: I'm not L: We need to have something to keep us on the rails otherwise we will R: Where are the rails? L: stay here until R: There's not enough room in here for rails. Are rails cool? If rails are cool I'm for it. L: If- R: If they are a cooling thing, a cooling rail. But a hot rail doesn't sound as good in here L: Oh no, that's a bad idea in here R: I don't think there's room for a- we'd have to get rid of some of my baggy pants L: and I- I- I do not support the idea of getting rid of any of your baggy pants. I think they're wonderful. R: It's true. It's true. So you do have questions, you said. L: Yes. I don't remember which one of us were supposed to start with the questions but I guess I'm the one who has them, so R: You're holding the cards. I think you just do the job L: In that case "Do you feel clowns get more enjoyment and fulfillment out of making other people laugh or out of being a clown? To put it another way 'If a clown honks a horn in the forest and there's no one to be entertained, does the clown still feel satisfaction?'" R: I love that this was phrased to us in the form of a silly joke. The of the only way to properly explain this was to L: Yes R: was to come with a punchline. Wow. First off, what a- what a great question because there is this duality in- in the work we do because it is both a calling, nobody- nobody ends up a clown. You decide to become a clown. You decide to study this, it is a tremendous amount of work if we're being serious about L: yes R: and then you go out and you do it so it's- You have to want it, deep in who you are. L: yes R: There has to be something fundamentally in you that calls to that. On the other side, the clown, if you think about in terms of like classic clown, classic circus, the clown's the only act in the circus the doesn't need the audience and I know I've said this before. L: You said "that doesn't need the audience" R: No, that needs the audience. L: There we go R: It needs the audience. Did I say it wrong? L: You said it wrong just now, so I thought I would- I would get some clarification. R: Ah, you saved me. You saved me. Okay so the clown is the only act that desperately needs the audience, to be clear. Without- without someone there, they're just standing there looking around wondering what's going on and by that I'm not- I'm not mocking the other acts in a show. You know, the aerialist can still fly and be beautiful the, you know, the acrobats can still do their work. The jugglers can still throw and catch. All of these things still- the lions still goes "rawr" are all of these things still happen. The clown's work is so connected to the audience than in many ways it doesn't happen without it. L: Yes R: So that's what I'm talking about. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So there's- there are these two sort of ideas L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That are- they- they're deeply embedded in it. So on one hand I have actually said in an interview in the past "Yes, I would probably be a clown no matter what. I'd likely be a clown in the shower." You know, it's just- it's just who I am at the core, at this point, the core of who I am, the teachings and the things I've learned and the way I think, those things are always gonna be there and I'm always gonna delight in silly human stuff. Not in a punching down way but just in a celebratory "Humans are dumb" and you know, sort of way and just kind of L: Yeah R: enjoying that fact. On the other hand, I am keenly aware from doing video projects and this project, this project has come with a- every drop of feedback means so much because it's so isolated from our audience. We're literally in a tiny little room we- we can't see you but we have to- we have to know you're there. L: Yes R: and then you tell us and it means it- it validates that L: Yes R: It means so much. The video work, you're pouring all your energy into an audience that is imagined because they're going to be there in the future L: Yes R: and inherently it's not the same as a live audience breathing with you. L: Yeah, no. It's totally different. Totally a different experience R: and it- it requires a higher level of energy expenditure to do the simplest things in a connected way in that context that I think the- I think the- the presence of the audience is so critical that- and I'm trying not to be negative about it, but it sucks the life out of the work when they're not there. L: Yes R: So there's this- there's that balance going on. So I think, for me, I'm gonna have a good time no matter what, but I'm going to have a better time if the audience is there. L: That- that makes sense R: So that, I think, is- I think that's my answer. For like L: That's a good answer R: Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to turn this around on you now. What about you? "Do you feel that clowns get more enjoyment and fulfillment out of making other people laugh or out of being a clown? To put it another way, 'If a clown was- honks a horn in the forest- your handwriting was a little tiny today- and there's no one there to be entertained does the clown still feel satisfaction?'" L: You know, I think it's interesting that the word 'satisfaction' was used because I think that there is always a certain level of satisfaction to a moment of completion R: Oh sure L: and that's what things like the three beat gag are based on, is there's a certain pattern that we become comfortable with and understand and when we see that follow through to it's conclusion we enjoy that and we see that and that's part of why an audience laughs. I think that the laughter, the release, is a key element of the satisfaction of that R: For you L: I think possibly- possibly all the time R: Okay L: because one of the things that I do notice that I do, when we're doing work for video, for example, because I've been working on a video project lately is I'm still getting something out of it but the release points don't happen the same way because it's incredibly important that the clown doesn't laugh at their own joke. R: No. no no. L: They can laugh at the fact that something is silly in the moment in certain ways but they can't laugh at the joke. R: It's insufferable to watch a person onstage think they're funny about the thing they did or said. I find- that's a personal thing that I find L: yeah R: really hard to watch. Delighted and giggling cause it's delightful? Separate thing L: but, when I go off stage, when I end the video segment, if the work was good, I start laughing. I start having a reaction because the reaction has to happen. R: You've been holding it in? L: It's not even that I have been holding it in. It's like it's there in the room and it needs release R: oooh L: but, as a clown, it is not my job to release it. It's my job to put the tension there, to even cause the trigger for the release, but it's not my job to release it. That is what, if I've done my job right, the audience will do. R: Well said L: So, there is a lack of the satisfaction in the moment if there's no one around to be entertained. Now, I do think that can be delayed. I've done that, it can be delayed and I have to release it in the room so that I can move on to the next thing. It can be delayed and I get to hear later that people have had that moment and I actually just had an experience where I realized that I needed to make a call about whether or not I was going to have a person in the space in which I was recording who wasn't part of the act or not. R: and what did you decide? L: I realized that because I was building something where that release was going to happen on a delay that I needed it not to happen in the moment. Which was very strange for me because it felt very at odds with how clown work tends to work because we've talked multiple times about how the energy- the energy that the audience feeds you and helps you move forward and helps you work R: Oh yeah, when I- L: and when definitely give you your timings and all sorts of things R: When I- when I teach, typically we have the students are taking turns being either an audience for a performer or they're performing and then, you know, somebody is being an audience. Yeah, you have to have it. L: and yet, to build something where I was going to allow my delayed audience the full experience of feeling something for themselves? R: You couldn't have that in the room L: I couldn't have that in the room. Now I know that, like, stuff filmed in front of a studio audience happens and definitely feels good because then you feel like you're part of an audience. R: Well, I think what we're getting into is, we're getting into the idea that with video- and we're a little off-track from the point but, with video, you're creating a space and much like this microphone it's a space where you're- you're- you're theoretical audience, your theoretical friend is going to come and show up and experience what you've given to them later. L: Yes R: A lot of- a lot of actors talk about how theater with the fourth wall is voyeuristic in nature and subverting that into clown where you break the fourth wall is really connected because that distance is shortened. L: Yeah but so I definitely- I've felt that and I've- I've felt this in video that I've seen before but I couldn't figure out what it was until just recently, which was that thing of if one person laughs in the video that's like there being somebody up on the stage of to the side laughing R: Oooh L: and it's distracting and it pulls you out of feeling like you're actually experiencing this moment and it's fascinating to me that that seems to be true but I'm currently working on the theory that I think it is and it was very interesting and I'd be very curious to figure out how large of an audience you need to have when recording a video to shift it for feeling like there's somebody distracting in the space vs feeling like you're immersed in a group that is the audience. R: So one of the most interesting things I can think about that relates to this is when we worked on open stage L: Yes R: Which was- was performed for a live audience but simultaneously filmed. However, the way we filmed it, the camera was set center stage it was set- well, center of the audience, center of house. L: Yes R: and so, when you watched it you could hear and feel the breathing of the audience. When something big happened you really felt it. You were immersed and we didn't really think about it when we first built it. That was just the only place to put a camera that didn't suck L: Yeah R: and eventually it became such a feeling, if you look at that show and you put headphones on L: you feel like you're part of an audience. R: You absolutely feel like you're watching an environmental thing where you're in it L: Yeah, so I definitely feel like if there's one person laughing off to the side, that feels like it's a distraction and I know that if you're in a full- a full house and the camera's in the middle of the audience. That feels like you're part of the audience. I'd be fascinated to identify where that changeover happens. R: Well, you've just made- you've just made a note on a thing you need to explore by sharing it with everyone. So we'll- we'll- we'll hopefully have something to say about it at some point. L: Yes R: I think you've stumbled on something that's really interesting and what's so fascinating about it is we share a roughly similar opinion though mine is this "Well it can work with all this and, you know, different nuances" you're just like "yes and no" just like hit *smacking sound* L: Both it works and it doesn't work. R: I just think L: So it was- I- I definitely think that, we both do come down on this very similar place of there's so much more enjoyment when you get to play with an audience. It's so much better but yes if you're a clown, if you perform as a clown, you're enjoying the heck out of every time you stumble onto a piece of silliness R: right L: let alone when you are performing a piece of silliness. So, yeah, it's both. R: Okay well it's both. Though you're strongly opinionated about it and I'm very nuanced about it so that's- that's interesting. L: Yes R: Well okay. Question- question knocked out I think. I hope we- I hope we helped. We're going to move on if you're ready. L: Yeah, sounds great. R: Okay. Okay here you go. Huh. "Do you know of any animal/clown acts that were good?" L: Interesting. That's an interesting phrasing of a question. I am immediately trying to separate myself from my initial feel where they seem to be equating animals and clowns R: You're different. You're different. It's okay. L: We're- we're different things. R: It's worth mentioning, we're not dogs. L: because clown acts that were good? Yes. Many. They definitely exist. There are too many for me to list. R: Maybe, maybe it's a combination L: but animal and clown acts, as a combination? I don't know that I know that many clowns who do animal acts. I- I personally am somebody who does actually enjoy animal- animal acts in performance and I want to put a big old caveat on that. I enjoy it because one of the things when I enjoy it that I enjoy is seeing the relationship between the trainer and the animal when it's good because you can see when an animal adores their trainer and it's a totally different experience if that's not the case and I think if there's a situation where an animal is upset and it's bad? That shouldn't happen. That's- end of story that's bad. R: Well you're- you're defusing the myth of- you hear- you hear abuse stories in circus and there have been a handful of real tragedies L: Yes R: but then- but then the mythology that comes out of that is that all animal acts are poorly treated and my answer to this, from- from doing some research on it because we've- we've received letters asking us if we had animals. Children will ask us. L: Yeah R: Things like that will happen. We are terrific letter once yelling at us about not having elephants, which- we don't have animals, we never in the history of our circus have had an animal act and so we wrote this kid a letter including pictures of our performers dressed as Both: as animals R: saying this is as close as we get L: Yes R: so, we're good and that are elephant was imaginary L: yes R: it was important to point that out but- I still have that letter. L: good R: yeah, but what is- what is true, if you want to get really gross about it animals that are trained are so expensive, in terms of the animal itself, the upkeep and the feeding and everything else that the- the insuring it the- there's so much there that most of the time, you wouldn't abuse the animal because it would cost you more because then you'd have to get it healthy again L: Yes R: and that's been most of the research I- I've- I've done and I've gone and I've talked to. We- we talked to the Hugo Oklahoma elephant sanctuary L: Yes R: and they're- they're very much the first to tell you that that was the relationship and then they- they pull those animals out of there when they need care. They're- they're not performing at those points L: At the same time, one of the things that I have definitely seen, and you can you can tell when a- when an animal act is good, is that the- these are ways that animals are getting too play, exercise their brains, enjoy doing activities and you can see them doing it and you can see how proud they are of themselves for completing various things. R: I'm the same way L: And maybe that's- maybe that's me just writing on to animals. I don't know. I'm sure somebody could come after me about it, but that's how I feel about it. I have seen some animal acts that I really, really enjoyed. I could not tell you the names of any of the animals involved. I couldn't tell you the names of the trainers involved because I was so in the moment watching that I did not pick up any words because there's not much words to go with good animal performance because it has so much more to do with silly shenanigans and visible things that I find that that's not a thing, but I don't know that clown and animal performance go together. R: At all? L: I don't- I don't- I don't know that they don't. I'm sitting here thinking about it now because it's not something I would be interested in doing and it feels like something where clowns are chaotic by nature. Even the ones that are very, very, like, rules obsessed are chaotic by nature and animals are chaotic, typically, and I feel like the job of an animal trainer is to be the foil to that potential chaos and I don't know that a clown is capable of being that foil R: *laughs* L: I don't know that that's possible. It might be, I would love to see an example of it working but my immediate instinct- instinct is to think that I don't think that works. R: Well, there you go. L: So that's- that's my answer. So what's- what's your thoughts? "Do you know of any animals/clown acts that were good?" R: Well I'm not going to speak about the morality of animals or clowns. That's just- that's not a safe topic at all. I will- I will say that I have a very different opinion here. I am not a fan of animal acts. It's not that I don't think they're interesting or beautiful, it's that every time I've had an experience with animals? It's gone badly. From the simplest, I was double booked by a monkey once L: Wait, so somebody booked both you and a monkey? R: Right and the monkey got the gig. So from the get-go, I'm already resentful. L: *laughs* R: So like, right away, I'm not- I'm not happy. Then I worked on a music video, I was asked to play the devil- I know, typecasting but I- I- I was asked to play the devil and they- we had some performers that were Adam and Eve and everything else and there were scenes where there was a snake and a friend of mine is a wonderful person who rescue snakes and does educational things where he teaches about snakes, it's called "Snake Encounters", I'll link to it, but the snake shows up and because the devil is the snake in various sce- like they- they edited so that I am there when the snake- when the devil is in human form and the snake L: Oh, and so the snake is the same character R: Right. So that is the only reason I am the only person that- that at that shoot that wasn't viciously crapped on by snake. Just the snake- everyone was like "Oh, the snake's so chill, it's fine" and just proceeded to unload lunch on every one, and it's- it's gross and upsetting L: That is R: So there I am tr- and the music video's out there somewhere but you- you sit there and you see me looking very serious and doing my thing and the reality is, we're all like- our eyes are watering 'cause it's also L: Uugh R: hot summer day *laughs* L: Uuugh R: It's a terrible truth. I also, as a clown, so you were talking about being so proud of yourself and being so excited that things were going well that's the stuff I wanna do. So I don't wanna be on stage with a creature that is dumber than me that's getting that moment because that's what I'm there for. L: *laughs* R: and maybe that sounds egotistical. Then after that there's the moral concerns of are animals being treated well are animals L: *Affirmative Noise* R: you know, and I have seen- I have seen examples of- of animals that were treated incredibly well in circus, you know, whether they were dog rescues that train some of the- the- the dogs that were suited for it for performance as way to fund the dog rescue. You know, things like- I've seen really good examples of this done well. L: Snake Encounters R: Snake Encounters, that's specifically what they do. I- I just- I don't know, for the same reason that I don't think they go together but I personally, I'm always like "Uh, animal act, uh, I guess I'll- I'll watch" and then I found out there was a circus, a rather famous one that I got to see, removed their clowns at one point in history and replaced it with a horse act. L: Interesting R: and the horse act was magnificent. It was some of the most impressive feats of equine human interactive acrobatic beauty I had ever seen and the whole time I'm thinking "You mean the clown didn't get the job because of this?" I couldn't get away from it. L: Oooh R: So my opinion- my opinion is incredibly skewed. It's incredibly skewed. L: Yeah you have a bias. R: I have a bias. So I feel weighing in on this is hard and again I'm not going to speak to the morality of any of it. So are there any that are good? That are fun to watch? I can't- I can't really think of any. I will say that I have had one incredibly positive animal interactive experience. L: Okay R: Oddly enough, because I mentioned our friend from "Snake Encounters" who clearly I'm gonna have to say hello to because I haven't spoken to in a while after all this but one of the things he had was this amazing tegu named Capone. L: Ohh, I love Capone R: Capone was a tegu and tegus are amazing. And I am historically afraid of everything and I had not confronted the sort of reptile twitchy trauma that lived in me and I hadn't really been aware of it because I just, you know, you just sort of don't do that and then I found myself in a show with all of these reptiles. I was freaking out the whole show and at the end he goes "You know, Capone is the most chill thing ever. He's basically a football with legs." I said "Yeah?" and he takes it out he puts it on the stage and he says "Sit down" and this is in the middle of the show L: Oh wow R: and there I am sitting and the tegu kind of walks over, checked me out and I kind of check out the tegu and the tegu looks at me like "I'm not going to eat ya, are you gonna do the petting thing? I like the petting thing." I'm like "Yeah, I'm gonna do the petting thing" and I put my hand on the handbag with legs L: *chuckles* R: the football, the deflated football and I was like "Oh, that's nice" he moved a little and I didn't freak out 'cause he was like "I'm moving slow now, okay." and it was not so bad. So I had a really ni- and apparently everyone was enraptured and I didn't know somebody had a camera on L: Oh wow R: So there's video of this. I'll- I'll find it but the point is I had this really, really lovely moment but it's the only example of animal and clown being good together I've ever experienced, I've ever seen and honestly everyone was cheering for Capone L: You think everyone was cheering for Capone, not for- not for you getting past a thing? R: You know what? I think that's important and I think it's good and I think it's lovely but I really like that Capone was the hero of the day. Which is also the reason I don't want to be onstage with an animal because even I as the clown want to root for the lizard L: That's fair R: and there you have it L: Alright then. I think that's that question answered. R: Have you noticed that if I say "and there you have it" really definitively, it sounds like I rehearsed a big speech but we didn't even talk about this? That does rolls out of me and I sound so confident. L: You know, R: You- you were like L: sometimes that's how that works R: I was like- I put the button on that L: You did R: and now I ruined it. Just like that. L: All right, so then the next question, if you're ready for it. R: Am I ready for the next question? Yeah I can do another question. L: All right. "What does toki pona offer to you? How does it go together with clowning?" R: It's happened L: Someone asked R: Someone actually asked. Okay, so first, I know a lot of people who don't know what the heck I'm talking about are listening. So I'm going to take the worst, shortest explanation. Toki pona is a made up language that has L: a conlang. R: a conlang L: constructed language R: Am I answering this, or are you? L: You're answering it. R: Ok, when I get to the L: I'm just clarifying. R: Thank you. When I get to the being smart part, you know what you need to do? L: Be like you? R: Yes, talk too much. L: You got it R: Thank you. So it's a constructed language, I hear L: Yes R: of about one hundred and twenty words and there was a- there was a linguist named Sonja Lang who invented this and it- it kind of became internet famous in some circles and I don't remember exactly how I stumbled onto it but I know I stumbled onto it around the end of twenty sixteen, beginning of twenty seventeen L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and- and I had- I had sort of dug into it and become very interested in it and it had- this was- this had nothing to do with the work. I was like "Oh, a neat thing!" and I just dove in and I found it really fun and it's- it's silly. It's a silly language and you- it's made up and it's- it's just- it's a little bit of playful nonsense and at first it was just a toy, and then I realized that it seemed that this very simple language was really useful because not- all of the words, while they may have been based on things were not words that I had a tremendous amount of semantic loading to. They didn't mean things. You know, if I say "money" to you, all these words come up. If I say "god" to you all these words come up. If I say "love" to you, all these things come up L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and- and these words didn't have that, and so they were- they were free from my existing thinking. Which allowed me to think about them in a broader sense and I thought that was really, really useful, interesting, important and I started playing with it and there's a moment that happened where I started realizing that the- the way the language works it has a these big, we call 'em "word buckets" but, you know, semantic primes. Big- big- one word that covers a lot of things. So, for example, the word "olin" might mean "love" it might also mean "respect" it might also means "caring" it- it can have a very broad meaning and it can be any part of speech. So you these very large ideas and so I was- I was digging- was digging around at that idea and realizing that in the work, the clown work, there are so many big ideas that you have to hold on to like fifty different things in your head and it feels impossible. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but so many of them were falling neatly into this- into this language. Like, I could communicate these ideas on this language pretty- pretty effectively and so at first it was a lot of mental exercise and then I brought it to the theater lab where I was doing a- a teaching residency and- the circus center and so I- I started- I started just kind of like "Hey, I'm going to throw this at'cha and I- it's a complete experiment. Please tell me if I'm- please tell me if it doesn't work." and it was- it was one of those- it was really, it was real refre- and everybody came back, everybody in that room, even people who didn't want to learn another language came back and confirmed "No, this makes sense. This lines up" and then there's the- the big- the big moment. So, I started really working on this and I'm- I'm just- I'm neck deep in it all the time. I'm at the point where I'm thinking, you know, because it's so simple I could pick it up enough to where I could think in it and I was writing and I was playing and I was talking and- and we were learning and everyone around me starting to pick it up. I don't think anybody actually sat down and learned toki pona. I think everybody just absorbed because I wouldn't shut up. L: Well, you did hand out- R: Dictionaries L: Dictionaries R: Yes L: to everybody because you can- you can make some out of a sheet of paper. R: Right, yeah. So we had those going on and so the- it was- it was building in fever pitch and then I had this night and I have for a long- since I was a very young, that horror movie moment where you find the person who's gone mad in some occult horror film, where they're gibbering to themselves and writing on the walls and they've gone mad they think they figured it all out and I used to point at those scenes in films and say "I think that's my fear. That I'm gonna go mad like that" and I would say that, a lot, it was a running joke throughout twenty years of my life and one night, we were coming back from the residency, we'd been really deep in the work and we'd been assembling kind of a- a model of how the clown state is assembled and what's necessary and where the problems are and I started muttering to myself and I remember, you were driving, and I remember I put my hand up and I just basically begged you not to speak. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I L: yeah R: started repeat- because I had it and I started repeating it to myself over, and over, and over, and over and- So I could hold on to it because it was a like a forty five minute ride home and I got home and it was late at night and we put everything away and I'm still- and I finally get- we have a drawing board on the wall and there I was, in the middle of the night, speaking toki pona and writing various things down and drawing a weird occult map that. L: In glyphs R: In glyph- in glyphtic language, in weird secret occult language. I had literally accomplished the feat of going mad in that particular way for a very specific purpose because when I was done, I brought it back to the lab. I copied it down, I brought it back to the lab and I said "Let me show this to everyone" and this is the- the part where I have to say this is not toki pona, this is my thing that's built out of toki pona. Which is essentially, taking all these different, disparate elements, marking them with different toki pona words and using them as big semantic ideas that you don't have too much semantic baggage about. So you think about that and then all the stuff that's actually true sort of leaps out the sides and we learn something about you and your clown. I mean that's- that's really what this is about and showed the model to people and I watched a room full of people light up. I had some other people come and study with me like, they came to town to study with me. I showed them this. They lit up. They had good use. They have, we did good work. The work that came out of the following year cemented this. I am pretty sure, I've invented nothing. What I've done is I've gotten us away from our default thinking in a particularly silly, interesting way and truth tends to seep in when you're playing. L: Yes that's definitely true. R: And- and the idea of simplify everything and removing all of that so you can play is incredibly useful 'cause theater is a simplified abstract model of reality. It has nothing- it may be very honest but it's it's not very real L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and reality is very real but it's seldom honest. So having this thing where you can get in the room and- and play with simple models and enjoy them and learn stuff from them became a really useful tool and when you're talking about exploring mental states, having tools that aren't bogged down with potentially shame, which is not use- it's real, but it's not useful L: *Affirmative Noise* R: to this work, or maybe arguably, any work. You know, or- or, you know, trauma or baggage or whatever you want to- whatever you want to bring the that table, theoretically. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: this was a way where we could- where we could explore different ideas without having that, on a really simple one that I love is, the- the word for "truth" and "present" and "presence" is "lon" L O N "lon" and this refers to being- being here L: It's also "the ground" R: It's also "the ground". Can be. So the idea is it's a big idea L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and one of the first things we discovered is the first job in teaching clown is getting people in the room and by that I don't just mean showing up for class. I mean people are either distant from the present moment whether that is because they're defensive, traumatized, afraid, skeptical, L: distracted R: distracted absolutely, because of all of these things, they're a little distant. So one of the first jobs is to get them in the room and usually the minute you- you achieve it, there's a massive emotional explosion L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and on one hand you can say "Oh, that's because that traumatizing" on the other you could say "Or, if it's in a positive way, if it's done gently and it's done lovingly, it's because they powered up. They showed up" L: Yes R: and I've seen that and it's magical and so I came to, you know, "lon" represents that idea. This huge idea of just getting in the room in all the different ways, and finally I- one day I was talking one of my students and I said- I said to them- I said "mi lon la mi pona" so "If I'm here, I'm good" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I loved the idea of that as a - like a mantra. It- it's feels nice to say, it doesn't mean anything else and it says "mi lon la mi pona" also, "If I'm honest, I'm not broken" it means that too. It also says "If I'm present, then I am improving" and it means, because all of the words mean different things and it's "if we show up, then good things happen" it means all of those things because of the wide semantic primes. So again, it has the encouragement of poetic thinking. Which, for the clown, because the clown deals in emotions and ideas is so deeply important and life tends to bog us into thinking really literally L: Yes R: So in- in the- the idea of how you use this, it helps you get to places where you can play with ideas, in the same way we play with games. L: Yes R: and it turns- it loosens the bolts on the language- if you don't know foreign languages, it loosens the bolts on your language centers and so I think it's a good intellectual exercise to get you just a step out of your comfort zone and learning something and it's not so big, because if I told you "You have to learn French to be able to study" you be like "That's a lifetime's work" and it is. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: This is, you know, you- maybe you work for a week or a month? I'm slow, so maybe I work for two? L: And for, and for- R: You don't need to memorize this to learn L: for what we do R: yeah you don't L: with it, it doesn't need anywhere near that much. R: No, because of the end of the day, what happens is we start making associations to the underlying emotional idea behind these things. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the, you know, the idea of "want" and "need" and "impulse" being all the same thing and there becomes a- a term that means the catch all for this and I think that's a- it's a markedly interesting idea L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and so that's- that's where where it came to, for me, and then we have joked in the work that the clowns that we make, because we taught them this way, that's their native language. They learned English in order to play with others, they'll to L: Yes R: in order to play well, they've learned English and have some very strong opinions about language. I've noticed ever since we did this aspect of the work our clowns became more interestingly verbal and I don't mean clever talking. I became- I mean they had more interesting things to say and how they said them became something they clearly thought about. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and that's interesting to me. To move that, obviously you need to get people in their bodies and it's a physical theater discipline and we want to really focus on movement but when we get to an intellectual place, it's really interesting to see the poetry the comes out. L: Yes R: and I mean that in any language, when they finally start talking. L: Yeah R: I've also learned that if you get them talking fast, it's hard to get them to shut up, but that's me complaining as a teacher. L: *laughs* R: So, I think that covers the broad strokes of it and I mean, anything more than and I'm giving a micro masterclass, but yeah. It became- it was a silly toy that became very important and I like to think of it as, juggling is not owned by clowns and yet, we always seem to associate "Oh, yeah, juggling. Like a clown!" this is the same thing within our clowns. It's like, yeah, they're not all about this at all L: but R: but just it's just- it's a part, and to us it's associated and now that we have it, we're also free to use it for anything we want. You know, we- we realized that the clowns could be "the good kind of weird people", "jan nasa pona" it means clown L: *Affirmative Noise* yes R: and I was delighted to find out that I'm- I'm not the only one that's pick that idea up and carried that ball. So that's, to me, it's wonderful. I think it's the same teachings that I got in other places when I went to study. All of them, and this is where I grab my opinion shovel, all of the places I went to study, the bias of the teacher was so strong, and it has to because it's through their lens, that it changes the work. Whether that teacher is religious in a way or from a mindset of a way or is thinking very practically in terms of how you perform professionally L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It doesn't- it- there's always something in their work that changes how they approach it. I certainly have the same biases, I'm not suggesting I'm bias-free, but what this did was rather than grabbing one of those old potentially problematic lenses, it gave me a new lens to explore this work through. So I think, in that way, it was essential to the work. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: For the rest, it's just- it's just a nice new way to look at the same old thing. L: Yeah R: So that's- that's my- that's my best I can answer. If you have more specific questions ask and I'll- I'll- I'll dig at it, I'll dig at it some more. In the meantime, I realize that, I have- I have- you learned this from me L: Yes R: So we have- we have this weird problem that I guess- I want to hear what it- what it offers you and how it goes together with clown for you but I also realize it- I don't want to L: That you have just gone on for quite some time and may have used up all of the material on it? R: I may have- I may- I babbled on and covered you up and I'm- I'm gonna say that I don't believe that because you're such a genius and I don't think you needed a punch down about it but what I will L: I wasn't punching down R: No you punched across, you're right. What I will say is I- I'm very curious, because you've- you've studied with other teachers as well L: Yes R: not as much as you've studied with me. I'm curious where, if you isolate clown training and this, where it was specifically interesting or helpful. L: Hmmn, well that's an interesting question. I- so I started picking up toki pona before you had your big epiphany with it because you were playing with it and I decided to play with you. R: Sure L: because it was fun and honestly my toki pona is still not great but I think that idea of relatively not loaded semantic primes, the "word buckets", really, really does make it big difference in the level to which I feel like I can approach the work every day when I come to it, no matter what the situation is. Because I think it's very easy to prepare yourself with concepts and triggers and ideas that have more loading then is useful in a partic- a specific situation because if I think about, you know, we've mentioned that clowns are fairly chaotic. We've talked about the fact that they're going to go after things. They're- we talk about what I think, when I translate it back into English for myself, I tend to think of as "Impulse" as my translation for the word bucket that is 'wile' but 'wile' means 'to want' it also means 'to need' and it's very, very useful for me as a clown to be able to have the same intensity with things that clown wants versus something that I might need as a person because I- for example, I have an act that I do, that I built, that it is entirely about my clown attempting to distract themselves from wanting to eat cookies that they've put out our plate for someone else. That is entirely what the concept is and the interesting thing about the act is watching somebody wrestle with how badly and how burning their want for this is and how strongly they're trying to keep themselves under control and to not take something that they've designated is actually for someone else and it- they do end up caving and end up grabbing one of these cookies and that's part of why I made sure that it's something and they've put out in the first place, so that it doesn't feel like a- it doesn't feel like they're bad when they eventually cave but if- if in that act, I just sort of kind-of wanted one? There wouldn't be anything interesting about it. It wouldn't work if I just sort-of kind-of wanted a cookie. R: and we're taught- we're taught not to admit, in life, we're taught not to admit we want things, we need things and so it's such a useful tool to be reminded that you're allowed to want something. L: and you're allowed to want something so badly that it's something that you need and the there's no difference between the idea of "want" to the idea of "need" and we've poked at it- that a few times in workshop. R: Oh, you know, I always remember we had- we had a clown, the clown was called Izzy and when we were workshop Izzy, when we were playing with this idea and- and he was there for sort of the beginning of this- this process asking him to explain the difference between want and need as a clown and I didn't really unload this whole bigger bucket idea and I said- I said "Can you explain the difference between want and need?" and he says "Well I- I really- I really need a cookie. I would like to breathe but I really need a cookie" and- and- and then he would talk for a while longer they would reverse. L: Yeah it went back and forth. R: and he got to the point where it was clear that his desire for the cookie was indistinguishable for his desire to breathe and obviously for the sake of reality, this is a terrible way to operate in the world, but again in the world of theater what a delightful thing to watch. A person who is going "Well, could I hold my breath and eat a cookie? is- Do I- could I skip breathing for a day and only cookies?" you know, and watching L: "Could I skip cookies for a day and breathe? I don't-" R: Yeah and watching the negotiations of someone who's living in a- in a very flamboyant, poetic way is so much fun because it's- it- it's obviously ridiculous. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, to be clear I'm speaking- I'm speaking as a- a person watching theater and it's- it's so much fun watching someone who is that impassioned and they're suddenly, instead of just being "Well, you know, the reality is-" instead of that, having this launch point where they're- they're literally making negotiations and the stories that can roll with that because once that's possible you can branch off further and how do they resolve this and we suddenly- we care about them as much as they care about the cookie and the breathing L: and- and the thing about it is when you have, so- so there's that and that was somebody who was- who was in it R: Oh yes L: Who was in it and that was their immediate responses but when you're trying to find your way to it R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and you're trying to find- you're- you're showing up on a day, and you've had whatever day you've had and it's time to go on stage and want a cookie that you don't actually want because you don't eat sugar? R: It's different L: Which was a thing that developed after I had come up with this act, having words to describe that to yourself 'mi wile moku', 'I want to eat", "I want food" R: "I'm hungry" L: "I am hungry", R: Yeah L: "I need food" being able to just sit there and, you know, we've discussed the topic of priming of- of thinking about things in advance of an act because then they're there for you when you go there, and it's not rehearsing, it's just thinking about things and letting them be there in the back of your brain. Being able to use a word that so interchangeable like that means that when you get there and you sorta want a thing, you don't really want it, but you kind of want it, you can build it R: Yeah L: so much faster, because now what you've said- what you started with saying was "I'd sorta like a cookie" but the words that you used were indistinguishable from "I need food or I will die" and you've repeated this to yourself which allows it to- to shift from one of those to the other. And it's a wonderful, wonderful tool for that. R: Without all of the direness of the thoughts of dying and all those other things L: because none of those are there! R: Exactly, that's what's so neat L: 'cause you don't have to approach any of those. You just- you- you feel the intensity R: and the positivity L: but purely in a positive way R: It's so good L: and it- so- so that's how it relates to clown for me, in a big way. Is it- it allows me to approach things, see where- check in with myself and make adjustments by simplifying everything. So that's why when I saw you talking to yourself and scribing glyphs, by the way I love the glyphs, toki pona can be written in Latin script but there is an entire glyphtic language, where there's one glyph for each word R: It's so good L: and I love it. But I saw you scribbling these glyphs and erasing them and moving them around and trying to figure out where they all went, all I was was excited because I'd started to poke at it, we'd been talking about it a little bit and I knew that you'd found something, and so I was watching to see what you'd found. R: *laughs* L: and I actually, I looked at it and I think I wrote a note off to the side, not on the same board, but off to the side because I thought you had two of them mixed up R: and it turned out you were right L: which it turned out you did, but I needed to give you the space to just go write. R: I'll give you full credit for that, 'cause we figured it out about a week later we- we- we are L: We- we checked in and we went "Oh, no we need to reorganize" but- but it was also so easy to see what you were doing because these are so simple that the minute you wrote them it was like "Oh that!" and it becomes very easy to see and it's very- and I think it's interesting, when you come and do a workshop with us and it's one of the workshops where we're building with toki pona and you get to the point where we explain all of this there's R: Seven L: there's maybe ten words in toki pona that become relevant to the work. There's the stuff that's on what we refer to as "the map" and there's the word for "to sleep" and the word for "go", "start", "do" R: Okay, so in that case, ten L: Yeah. It's ten words, anybody can pick up ten new words. You're- take- picking up a new skill, you're going to learn ten new words just because they're ref- just because they're- they're important and specific to the skill you're developing. So it's absolutely lovely that we found a subsegment of this thing that's already so simple R: Speaking of which L: For us to play with R: You deserve some credit L: *Questioning Noise* R: So it's not all your work. So, I had come up with this map and these ideas and you were in those workshops with me L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I had come up with the phrase "jan nasa pona" to describe what I viewed as the clown L: As the clown, yes R: get the clown and you're the one who doodled out, I still have the post-it note the first version of the- L: The jan nasa pona glyph. R: the jan nasa pona glyph that is on our website. Now, you did that playing with the way that language is built visually. What's so interesting is that the glyph that is on our website is not just that and this is where I'm super proud L: Yes R: So, you never get to talk about so this, so this is, this is a good one. So you had drawn that and we were heading for a holiday show L: Yes R: A holiday themed show and I had this idea of, it's a pretty simple premise, we were going to put presents on the stage for the clowns and as- basically their act, they were given their gift and their props are inside or something related to the act was inside and I was like "Well, we could put names but that's really distracting, we could do this" and I said "You wanna, you know that little glyph that you did?" and this was so early it was like "that little meaningless glyph that you did? Why don't we just stick them on the bags, because it kind of, from a distance, looks like a clown" and we went "okay" and we asked, one of our clowns was a very talented artist and we asked her to to draw on all of these giant gift tags L: Yes R: Which I still have. I have one on the wall next to the hat rack actually, L: Yes R: it's on the wall on the way into the room but there's this- there's this oversized gift tag with the "jan nasa pona" so we did that and at the end of the show what it was, was it was- I think it was like a handful of tags and they were two sided so I had multiple- she had drawn like more than a half dozen of these L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and by the end of it, I looked and I picked one that I liked the look of and I scanned that in and I vectorized that by hand L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and that became the glyph that is in use on the website and became the stickers and has become the sort of logofied version of that glyph, but it started on a post-it note that you did and after- after I did a thing, you did a thing, the artist friend Melissa did a thing, and then finally I did a thing again and now everybody plays with that thing and we've seen people play with that thing. L: and it's wonderful R: yeah, it's wonderful L: it- yeah, and so, to be clear about that- about that glyph, because it's very easy to think of it- it's so easy to throw it in the concept of it being our logo. R: It's not L: It is not our logo. R: No is is not L: it is not for us exclusively R: No, it just means what we said L: and- and it's bad toki pona. R: It's wrong, yeah, that's the most important point about it. Is technically it's wrong. L: It's bad toki pona. You're not actually supposed to layer the glyphs more than two deep R: And you did. And you did. L: And I had a bout of deciding I was just going to break all the rules and I did. R: I think L: and I enjoy how it turned out and I think- I- I'm not that in touch with a lot of the toki pona community but I think there's other places where R: People have done it L: people have done similar things of putting three glyphs together because when you look at it, it still makes sense but it was very funny because I was like "Oh no, is it bad. It's bad. It's not how toki pona is supposed to work. It's breaking the rules." R: So what you're telling me as a young clown who didn't fully understand everything was so excited about a thing they did something badly and it turned out to be really entertaining. L: Yes R: I think you just put the button on your- your experiences L: *laughs* R: with toki pona right there. L: Fair R: Thank you for that L: Fair R: Thank you for that. Oh, you get another question after that. L: I think so, yes, R: I think you do L: because you- you answered first R: yeah, yeah, yeah L: And now I'm gonna R: Oh, Okay. You ready? L: Yes R: You ready? L: Yes R: "Clown shoe cobbler type question, how and where does one get clown shoes repaired? What are the materials in play?" L: Ooo R: Oh you of big toe L: Oh me of big toes. Ah, I love that this has been asked because I love that what was asked was not "Where do you get clown shoes?" the question was "Where do you get them repaired?" I don't remember who sent this but I love you R: keep repairing things L: because keep preparing things R: Heck yeah. L: So, the answer to that is arguably any cobbler that's willing to take on the challenge. Typically clown shoes are made of leather R: historically L: Historically. This is not always the case and is less and less the case as time goes on for many many reasons, cost and of course people wanting vegan options. I don't know the complete composition of most clown shoes. They basically come in a couple of forms there are either ones that have smaller shoes embedded or there are ones that it is just a big ol' shoe and yeah I think you're best off going local when it comes to repair. So you go in and you talk to someone and they take a look at the shoe and they go "Well, this is what it was made of and this is what I can do" and you have to sort of work with that and find out how you're going to make things work. I have yet to have to repair any clown shoes. I say that with a pair of clown shoes that are in dire need of repair and I have some research to do on that because I have a feeling that I will be repairing those myself because they were in storage before I received them because I purchased them used. They were in storage for an extended period of time and now whatever- however they were, I presume, painted the coloring on the edge is coming off R: *Sympathetic grossed out sound* L: it is not a fun time but I think- I think I'll be able to take some leather paints, to- I have no idea whether they're actually made of leather or not but I think some leather paints should do the job of actually repainting those. So, in what is true for many, many classic clown props and with many original clown shoes ya' do it yourself. You just gotta make it. You figure it out because it's all so unique and so personal that either you have to make it yourself or you have to reach out to an artist or an artisan and get something specifically made for you and that continues to be the case in- in almost- almost all things to do with- with clown shoes, but I think, yeah "What are the materials in play?" that totally depends and it's- it's in that case of anything that you can make shoes out of. You can make clown shoes out of anything you can make shoes out of. The exact same things come in to play. I've seen a var- a wide variety of clown shoes and what they look like and how they- how they behave because while I still don't know why clowns have big feet, they tend to but clowns also make all sorts of aesthetic choices in what they want their outfits to be and how they want to present themselves. Which means that just like how there are tons of varieties in shoes for people there are tons of varieties in shoes for clowns and if you've seen a shoe on a human being, out in the world, there's probably a clown that has a similar style of shoe that they've had made for their clown. It's just got a bigger foot. R: Okay L: I think that's my answer. I think- I don't think there's more to say on that topic for me. So what about you? "Clown shoe cobbler type question, how and where does one get clown shoes repaired and what are the materials in play?" R: I'm at a- I'm at a double advantage here. First of all, unrelated to this question coming in, I happen to have done some research recently on clown shoes for a friend. So I have- I have some things to say and then the other thing is that I'm sitting in front of a collection of shoes. L: You are R: I am- L: Yes R: I am not- I do not own a ridiculous number of shoes but over time they have added up and there's a fair number of shoes around us right now and as they are- not all of them are traditionally clown shoes but as they are shoes and they are mine and I am a clown, they are clown shoes. Thus adding on what you said. Now, historically, bigger feet is all about exaggeration. L: that makes sense. R: Okay, ultimately it's about that. Sometimes they were stuffed with horse hairs, you know, because you had what you had. You had hay, you stuffed the toe of a shoe. Sometimes it was a fake toe stuffed over a real shoe, sometimes it was a big open hollow space. Modern clown shoe was a- a last built inside a form insert inside of a classic shoe. This is where the research comes in. I just found out, after forty something years, the very premier American clown shoe manufacturer has retired. L: Spear's is gone? R: Spear's shoes has ended. That's- and that's a thing I only knew about because early in my career I had a very lucky opportunity where I ended up finding- there was a retiring clown and as part of a community project we bought out of their storage unit and that became props for everybody and of the things that got distributed to various people I ended up with a pair of these really lovely leather clown shoes and I have- I since have, you know, I'm using what I have, a since have- I don't have much new leather in my life but I had these and they are- they are historic and but they are- they're beautifully, wonderfully made and they are a classic clown shoe and oddly enough I don't perform in them very much. I perform in a completely different pair of shoes most of the time but they were made by company called Spear's and Spear's has made shoes for Ringling, they've made shoes for all the big circus, cirque du soleil, they made a lot of shoes for broadway. They- apparently they had a big market in elf and santa shoes was a big thing L: Oh, Santa boots R: Santa boots was a big thing. So they do this for years and they have announced they're done. They're not gonna do repairs. They're finishing out any custom orders they had, because all of these were custom and they're done. There are still some makers out there, because cob- 'cause cobbler work is it's own artistry and as you said, you could find local shoe store. I once walked into a shoe store, this was before I was a clown, I walked in a shoe store where they had a clown show in the window and it turned out that the grandfather had been commissioned to make a clown shoe and the clown wore them through a career and then at retirement gave the shoe back to the shoemaker to display. L: Oh, that's awesome R: So, they had that and was still willing to do that sort of work and I was like "oh, that's weird" and later on that proved out to be useful cause I knew who to go talk to for a thing. So you- you know, you never know, but there are still- there are still some makers out there. There are also, like everything, costume pieces. A shoe that you were once for a party because you wore a costume is a very different than a well made shoe and if you're going to do hundreds of shows a year your footwear has to be good or you're dead. L: Yeah R: For one thing, my back is not- is a little messed up and I can't wear anything with a heel or an arch and I have to wear flat shoes. So I became very aware that I need something that doesn't have any sort of heal on it and so that very much affected my choice in footware and that's- that's very difficult to find, obviously, in lot of shoes. So, it's- it also depends on the type of work you do, if you're not doing very physical things and it's- it's just what's on your feet. If you're walking in parades you need a good walking shoe. If you're doing acrobatics you need a shoe that you can do acrobatics in. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So I think a lot of it also comes from what sort of things you do and so it- it- it is- it's as personal as the clown is. My clown shoe of choice which I speak to and then I'll get back to answering question, I got into a thing where for whatever reason, we were all- we were all broke but we got our nice pairs of high tops, converse. L: Yes. R: We all wore- we all wore chucks, at one point we all- we didn't even plan it. We all looked and we went "Oh! We have shiny new chucks!" we took picture and that became a- we all- we all wore high tops. We all wore shoes and I picked burgundy because I like them. You know, everybody picked a color and I said "Mine are burgundy" and I wore burgundy and for long time people knew that was my shoe, which was funny because I only wore them when I was teaching or performing. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The rest of the time I wore other things, but they were for that and I bought a really cheap knockoff pair because I was, again I was broke, and I ended up going around the world to go study and- and teach and I wore these worn out- I wore- I walked through- I bought them from a discount rack for like seven dollars and I walked through the bottoms of and I still have them. They're just a pair of burgundy canvas shoes that look vaguely like cheap knockoffs of- of converse. I'm saying this brand over and over and I'm being very uncomfortable about talking brands but that's the brand and it was important to the story because it was- it was a popular shoe and I didn't do popular things but I did this. So anyway, I'm in London. I'm studying with DeCastro and we're- we're being heightened consistently about the topic of the choices in clothing and we're gearing up to costume the clowns, we hadn't yet but we're being very heightened to look at fashion and "Go out in the world tonight and go look at people" and so I'm there, I'm sitting on the train, a bunch of us are going to dinner, and it's very crowded, on the train. I look over and there was this guy and he is so polished. He's like, black turtleneck, he's sleek. He's got a attache case and he's wearing the most beautiful burgundy leather shoes I have- they're shined perfectly and otherwise he's very plain a pair of glasses, was very plain, but sleek and he's got these shoes and I looked at his shoes and I smiled and I looked at mine like an idiot because they were the same color. I said "Like mine!" and he said- I said "I like your shoes, they're like mine" and he- and instead of going you're- you're an idiot he looked at me and he beamed, he said "Thank you. I am in love with them" L: That's beautiful R: and I realized in a moment, I'm not a things person but I deeply want to be the sort of person that could fall in love with a pair of shoes and that later became very fundamental to my clown and who I am as a person. To be able to just- not just love things, but to fall in love with them. The idea that someone could fall in love with a pair of shoes became a very meaningful thing and I spent about a year looking for the shoes that I never found and I ended up having to have the made and they cost a fortune and I saved up for it and that's typically when I perform in now but as far as materials go, it- it varies. It's a shoe. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I say your body is more important than your fashion. Wear something that isn't garbage because you're putting garbage on your body. If it's bad for your back don't wear it. If the color is important to you, wear the right color. The color happened to be important for me. If it isn't, I don't know, fifty shoes, go ahead. If you dance, wear dance shoes, that's what they're made for and I know several clowns who wear dance shoes because that's what they're made for. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and that's what they do. So I think that side of it- repairing, I think the interesting thing about the clown, and this is a- a sort of a hold over to the old world of it the clown has to do everything themselves. You can't go to a clown store and buy clown things. That doesn't really work that way, I mean, I'm sure somebody has set one up and they're terrible and there are some specialists who make things, like L: *Affirmative Noise* R: certain pieces, but at the end of the day you gotta do things yourself and I'm not saying you have to become some great D.I.Y. person. I mean, it helps, but I think you have to be encouraged to make- to make it yourself and also there's a thing that we don't think about. Fixing things up was about making do. And we repaired it because we've only got one pair of shoes, so we got the nicest ones we could and try to keep them going and so sometimes the repair told the story of someone who was living and the idea that the clown was all dressed up but it was their only good suit. L: Yeah R: Yeah. That's from another time- that's an idea from another time and I- I'm nostalgic for that idea, so I like that and I like seeing the age on things and I've really- While I were a lot of fancy costumes when I perform, I really love the idea of the ones that have gotten you know, a button sewn on that doesn't match or- or a repair that you can see, overtime, if you look for it. It shouldn't be distracting L: yeah R: but it should look like it's- it's been lived in because then it's real. The first time you wear something it's a costume and then eventually it becomes an outfit and eventually maybe it becomes like your skin, it's like a suit of armor you go into the world in and gives you some strength and the shoes are the foundation of that. Doesn't matter where you're walking, you're going to be walking in your shoes. Unless you're barefoot, in which case, watch your feet. L: Yeah R: Maybe trim your toenails. Yeah. So I think that's- that's the gist of my answer and if somebody knows about, you know, a modern- if some clown knows about a modern shoemaker that's making shoes I'd love to know because when someone asks me and I find it really funny, when I wear a shoe that look relatively normal except for the color they will ask me where to get clown shoes and I- I don't have a good answer because I used to say where my big costume-y clown shoes came from. Doesn't exist anymore L: Yeah. R: Now I've become that relic in time. So, by all means if somebody knows better than me I'd love to know. That's my answer. L: All right R: All right. L: I think- I think we are at our final question. R: Our final question L: For tonight- for to day R: for today of course L: I'm so used to saying tonight. It's still a thing I'm adjusting to. R: The daytime hour? L: being- being a daytime person because I got- because if you noticed, there's- there's words for segments of time throughout the day R: *Affirmative Noise* L: It's the morning, it's the afternoon, it's the evening, R: it's night. L: but then it's just night and it's just night all night and I got very used to only really existing in the evening and night. R: I see L: It's gotten very strange to have to adjust to actually using more words to describe the time and which I exist. R: I can help you. L: Yes R: I can help you. For "tenpo ni", "this time". See? See? L: Correct R: Still useful, even outside the theater L: tenpo ni R: tenpo ni. So the final question L: tenpo ni li R: lon tenpo ni. L: "Which kaiju would make the best slash worst clown?" R: *laughs* We get all the way into those depths and now I have giant monster problems L: Yes R: *laughs* okay L: This is why we love getting questions from you all, R: you L: because we never know what you're gonna say. R: I would never have said- I would never have come up with a kaiju question. Oh, I love a cheesy- I love a cheesy kaiju movie. I'm- I'm fine with it yeah. Wow. But which one makes a good clown? L: Yeah, which one makes the best clown- R: 'cause I've L: it sort of implies both, which one would make the best and which one would make the worst. R: Okay L: although it says best slash worst so maybe you could get away with just one. R: I can get away with- I could do- I can do both. L: Okay R: Okay worst. Worst is easy? L: yes R: Godzilla. L: worst clown? R: Worst clo- best- best kaiju L: Ah R: Worst clown. Because the longer Godzilla's been around because Godzilla started out a rubber- rubber monster 'rawr' L: Yes R: It has become like the god of giant monsters now. It's become an idea, an abstraction. It's too good. It's the king of monsters, therefore L: Oh, that can't be a clown. R: Exactly, see? L: Yeah R: See? It can't- it can't work it's too serious. It's too ser- and similarly for the same reasons, you know, all the- all the big famous ones but I would think- I'm thinking, so that's- that's the worst- the worst the- you know, you can't say- you can't say "Godzilla" you can't say "King Kong" 'cause these are- these are iconic L: yes and while clowns are iconic, they're not iconic for being the good one, they're iconic for being- being the lousy one. I hope. Yeah L: Yeah R: Yeah. Okay. So, for that reason I'm gonna say Mechagodzilla and here's why. Hear me out. L: Okay R: Mechagodzilla is both kind of crap as a giant lizard monster and kind of crap as a robot. If you look at it. L: I- I have to take you at your judgment on this R: well you L: Because I have never seen Mechagodzilla R: Our radio friends cannot hear the sound of my face falling that you don't know from this. L: I- I have never seen Mechagodzilla. I have watched one "King Kong" film. R: One "King Kong" film L: and I have R: Please tell me was an old "King Kong" film. L: No, it was a newer "King Kong" film and I have never watched a Godzilla film. R: Hang on. I have to take a moment. Friends, dear friends, I feel like I need to apologize. I feel like this is- as- as a teacher and as a curator of the creative arts I have failed in my mission to share the best of the world. Giant monster movies are beautiful because they are terrible. That's why it's- it's- It's why they're so good and I cannot believe that we haven't fixed this before now. L: I did- I did grow up having a hand puppet that was Godzilla. R: No L: That made the noise R: Okay better L: If you- it had- it had a button and the top of- of the mouth because it was just the mouth R: it goes "rahr" L: and you press the button and it made that- the screechy R: We know it, in our hearts. We're not going to fake it. L: Godzilla noise. R: We know it in our hearts L: So I do- I do have that one deep youth connection to it but I haven't seen any of the films. R: Okay. So well, I can't even turn this question back at you because the best and worst? How could you possibly answer it? L: Yeah, I can't. R: Your homework assignment, okay officially- and everyone go find Liam and- and absolutely check that this happened. Your job is to watch the worst kaiju movie you can track down. However cheesy low-budget possible. I'm not saying, you know, bad, inappropriate. I'm saying like poorly made because you have to- like, you have to embrace the silly janky nonsense that- We have to fix this. L: Okay R: You have been assigned homework formally. L: I've been assigned homework R: Formally assigned- Formally assigned homework and my formalest of apologies to everyone who thinks that I should have done better as a clown teacher for not being able to prepare you L: for the sort of question R: for this important, hard hitting question L: Okay. I will take on this piece of homework. R: Okay. So there L: I'll take on this piece of homework. At some point I will release a statement on which kaiju I think makes the best slash worst clown. R: A formal statement. I think- I think L: but I- I have some homework to do R: It's gonna take a while L: before I can do that R: Yeah because you're gonna have enough to have an opinion L: Yes R: Okay. Well, we've render- we've rendered our best kaiju-pinion kaijupin-? Opinju? Kaiju-pinju? Ah, it's not working that's two today the didn't work out. L: You know, they're not always going to. You gotta keep swinging. R: Thank you for that wisdom. L: Thank you R: I find- L: for the wisdom in the first place. I just repeat things back to you. R: I find your wisdom dubious due to your lack of giant monster knowledge. L: That's- R: I've just- L: You know, that's fair. I can't fault you for that. R: Okay L: Most of the giant monsters that I interact- that I- I watched R: you interact with? L: I interacted with R: are some your friends giant monsters? You should ask them. L: They- they might be. R: You should ask them L: but R: for a movie suggestion. L: I should. Most of the giant monsters that I saw in film growing up were animated R: Stop. You don't understand. You're talking about things you don't understand. L: Okay. R: I'm gonna save you from saying things you'll regret later. L: Thank you R: I'm just gonna tell you- I'm gonna tell you now and I love a good animated monster. No foolin'. I even know some the ones you're probably thinking of. It's not the same. L: Oh, I wasn't going to equate them. I was simply saying that that's all I've got. R: Okay. Well unfortunately that leaves you L: With an unanswered question R: Up- Up- "Up a river without a kaiju." As they say. L: I don't know if anyone has ever said that before. R: *gasps* L: That might be an entirely new phrase. R: I've coined a cliche. L: Well done. R: Thank you. In the meantime, since we've done that, we're gonna come back and do one more L: Yes R: and then we'll be back again for another season I think we've already- we've already said we're gonna do it L: Definitely. We've got several questions, we will still need more. We have more than enough to get a couple of episodes in R: Right L: but we don't have enough for a full additional season. So R: So L: keep sending us questions. R: do L: We want to hear them. R: We do, and in the meantime thank you so much for listening to us and hanging out with us. We're gonna- this episode is going to be laden with the show notes, of links to things we've talked about, you can go look at them yourself L: Yup R: and this has been another exciting episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Two clowns in a very warm closet. L: very warm closet. I'm looking forward to the gust of air that's gonna come in with the podcast theme. R: Yeah I think when I open the door L: I don't know which flavor theme is coming our way but R: I think I'm gonna leave it a mystery this time. L: All right R: I know what it is but I'm- I'm not gonna tell you. L: I'm looking forward to finding out R: are you ready to find out *pause* L: Yes R: Okay L: I had to savor the excitement for a moment. R: I felt it, you just- L: but then, yes R: you just let it build L: Yes R: okay *pause* R: Oooh, we missed it. Did you see you see it? You felt it and it *short raspberry* It fel- It went. L: That's 'cause you didn't move. R: *gasp* you can't blame me. L: Yes I can. R: I didn't feel the impulse. I lacked the wile. See what happens? See what- You give people words, they start using them, than they have thoughts and feelings. Gotta stop that. L: Oh no, gotta encourage that. R: Yeah, we really do. That's why I say it because then people go "Oh, shut up" L: *laughs* R: just like you did. Thanks everyone. We'll see you next time *door opens* *podcast theme plays*