----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 17 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2023-03-04 ----------------------------------- *Door Closes* Russ: *Exhales* Can we just revel in it, for a moment. Liam: The really good door slam? R: The- the quality door slam which I have provided for this amazing episode. I'm so excited. L: I appreciate it. R: Thank you. We're here. L: We are. We're here in the closet R: and it's a- it cooled off a little bit. L: It has cooled off a little bit. R: Which is so much nicer than the last one where we were a bucket of sweat. I think today we're gonna just be like a moist towelette L: Yes R: Of charm and charisma. L: probably about that. R: Charm and charisma. L: I feel like we need to write that down. "A moist toil- R: "A moist toilet" that's what you just said. L: *laughs* R: You want to take another run at that kid? L: "A moist towelette of charm and charisma" R: Oh it's- it's in the show notes now for sure. L: *laughs* R: Yeah, that's happened. We're here now. That's where we live. We live in a place where we say something like that and we are stuck with it for a bit L: Yes R: much as you have chosen to be stuck here with us, which is delightful. L: Thank you R: Yeah. This is- for those keeping score this is episode seventeen L: Total R: Season two, episode nine L: Yes R: of that thing that happens when we go up the stairs, across the landing which has the hat rack, into my room where all the circus books are, past the little oubliette storage area full of masks and theater lights- have never mentioned that before- and into this tiny little room where we close the door and record another exciting episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Oh, up top. You did nice. *clap sound* R: We're here. I guess that- that the big news is, this is it. L: This is. This is it. This is season two R: final episode. L: final episode. R: We are- we- we still need more questions for a season three, but we have some that we've chosen because we thought they were really good to- to keep us started. I figure we would give you this fair warning. That way you don't- you don't go "Oh, where'd we go?" don't worry. We're about to L: We are coming back. R: We are coming back. We have already, both by your request and by our own want, we've already agreed that there's going to be another season. So that will be coming. In in the meantime, you get to enjoy this time with us and we get to get into it because we have some terrific questions. L: We do R: We do L: You're diving really fast though. I'm surprised. R: I'm barreling, yeah. The clock's going and the banter level- I looked at it, and it said "quarter tank" and I thought it was enough but no. No we- we need L: No, no, no. R: like at least a half tank for a road trip yeah? L: Yeah. We can't- we can't leave people on an episode with no preliminary banter. R: Wouldn't it be terrible if somebody said to us "Hey, that last episode left me with a lack of banter"? L: That would be the worst. We did, however, finally have a friend show up in our gym R: Oh yes, "Circus in Place" L: and tell us "Get on with it" R: and so we did. L: We did in fact. It happened to be at the end of our R: our break L: our break and we went back to work R: So yeah. So, technically that one's accomplished but the opportunity's still open to tell us to get on with it here, but of course by the time you hear this we'll have been done with it and we have cleverly avoided being told to stop bantering. L: true R: You and I are geniuses in that respect L: It- it does work out quite well R: it does L: to- to be doing this in advance of when things will be released R: That's true. Okay, so because the banter level's low I have a suggestion. L: Yes R: We're obviously feeling the anxiety of the big finish and having to get it right L: Yes R: So what we should do is we should take a deep breath and exhale and do a little tiny bit of clown yoga and you can do this with us if you like. I find it to be a great way to relax. L: Yes this is a great idea. R: This is great L: I'm so for it. Okay R: So what you do is you find yourself sitting comf- let me shift a bit so I'm sitting L: Ah R: Ugh L: Ah! R: Sorry. L: Hmn R: Sitting comfortably. L: Yeah R: Now you take a deep breath in. You take another deep breath in, and then one more deep breath in and then you let it out *extended raspberry noises* R: and after that, it's very hard to take anything too seriously, I find. L: I agree. R: Yeah. You can feel the- the little bit of mist. We both looked away, very kindly. L: Yes, we did R: We did, but then there's- there's a feeling of a little bit of rain that comes down. Be careful where you do clown yoga, because it can- it can come and- it can come back at you. L: Yes R: Never- "never do clown yoga into the wind", as they say L: Yes R: That's been said, just now L: Before- I was about to say, before now? R: Oh heavens no. L: Or just now R: but it's- it's on the permanent rec- L: It's now been said R: It's now been approved and on the permanent record. We do have to credit the lovely Foley the clown for introducing us to clown yoga. L: Yes R: It is- it is Foley's wonderful invention, and truthfully I have never not been completely relaxed by that idiocy L: Yes R: or that idiot, come to think of it. L: Yeah, it's the best R: both. Ah. The comfort- it's comfortable now. L: Yeah, everything feels so much better. R: See? no ban- banter didn't go up, but the- the- the feeling's good. L: The feeling's so good. R: The feeling is very good. It's been- it's been a good- it's been a good moment. I'm ready to- I'm feeling close. What do you need? What do you need? That's what I always say L: What do I need? What do I need? R: Yeah, I always say "When you don't know how to move forward, figure out what you need and then give it to yourself" this is an excellent opportunity to do just that. L: I feel like- I feel good. I feel ready I feel like, R: Do you? L: ready to get into it. R: Do you? L: Yeah, we- we filled some banter time R: We do- I think, a little bit. Yeah, maybe a little L: We did clown yoga, in the closet. I'm feeling good, I'm feeling good about this episode. R: Yeah L: I'm feeling- everything is- I mean I'm- I'm a little sad that we're running to- towards the end. R: Ah, you see, you're still there with it L: but I'm feeling good about it. R: Yeah. Well, take a moment. Here's- here's an idea, you take a moment, dear listener, and if you- if you need to pause this and give yourself something you need to be ready we'll wait. *silence* R: I don't know how long we should wait though. L: Well, we did tell them to pause it. So R: So when they it unpause L: they should unpause R: yeah L: and we'll be good to go. R: I didn't think it through. L: It's okay R: I thought I was being really magnanimous and then I realized we- we would have to sit here and wait but not actually wait. I thought it was gonna be an nic- and now it's- it's a whole thing now. L: Is it? R: Isn't it? Oh! You're back! Wonderful! I'm so glad you got that thing you needed and I guess, like us, you're- you're probably feeling pretty hyped up and maybe your banter meter is at a level where you can begin L: I think that we are R: I think we might be there. As you know, the format of the show, pretty simple, I looked it up. We have cards which you, dear listeners, have sent us- sent us some- some questions. You've copied them down, Liam L: I have R: In your beautiful handwriting and we do our best to answer them. That's L: I appreciate the compliment on the handwriting, because the handwriting, in my personal opinion, is not so beautiful. R: we L: but I think it's mostly legible. So I believe we'll be able to do this. R: We dedicated a not insignificant amount of time to talk about your penmanship. I feel like, whether I even read these cards ever again, I need to die on the hill of believing that it's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful workmanship because otherwise why did we faff about that long? L: Because somebody wanted to know the tools that I use. R: The tools of the trade, as it were. L: Yes R: Except that- not the trade, just the tools of the- the scribe. L: Writing, yes. R: The scribe L: Yes R: Ooh, you can- this is a work related thing. You can technically add clown scribe L: Clown scribe? R: To your- to your professional L: you're not wrong R: titles list. I collect titles, by the way. I love a good title. If you have any spares and you want to send 'em to me, send them to me. I like- I like being declared things because I think it's ridiculous to declare me anything. I don't want to be voted into anything. I don't want to be- I don't wanna be, you know, knighted or anything like that, but I wouldn't mind if somebody goes "You know what? *silence* *clapping sound* yeah, that's your title now" I go "Yeah, sure. I'll take that." and I throw in the pile with the rest of 'em. L: Yeah. For anybody who did not see that, which would be everybody except for me, there was a pointing gesture R: Oh yeah, throw 'em and I L: that went along with that R: gesture towards the pile. You can pretty much assume that if there was a hand gesture to be made? L: It was made R: That was made- whenever I speak L: Yes R: I have- I have the- the, dare I say, the paws for radio and the face to match. *silence* L: How long of a pause? *longer silence* R: 'bout that long. L: Okay R: See? Dramatic pause for radio * silence* R: That's good L: Perfect R: Nicely done. L: So now that we've gotten those out of the way R: My paws? They're right here in my lap. You're pausing again *silence* L: Yes R: Okay. The question L: I have the questions R: You have the first question L: I have the first question R: You also have all of them currently. L: Yes R: That's how this L: We tend to hand them back and forth as a pile. R: It's a small closet, there's not a lot of room to spread out L: No R: Alright. L: So, are you prepared to answer the first question? R: Am I? L: Yes R: Yeah. I think- what a good feeling. Can I sidebar with a brief story? L: Sure R: Okay. So, a brief story. The very last night of a variety show I hosted for about five years, the last night of the show, we are shutting it down at the end of it. I was- I was very emotionally unprepared and I worked up a monologue which would allow me, in the show, to take that kind of moment that we just took where you check in with yourself and figure out what you need to say before we went on and I- and honestly, I took my hat and put it over the microphone stand and I talked to the hat. I wouldn't even look at the audience for a moment because they knew, the minute they started talking to me, it was already happening. So I had this, like, vignette moment and then I turned and I opened the show and in that moment I got to say "Thank you" and it was such a- I- I choked up. I mean, you can hear it when you listen to it and I always think about that. When you have that- the bittersweet beginning and the exciting- the exciting middle? That's what I think of. So I'm thinking about that. L: The bittersweet beginning? R: Yeah, because there's that beginning that- it's that moment- it's- it's a weird little bummer and it's that you know it's gonna be good but at the end of the day you also know when you're done it's gonna be over and any time I'm backstage, I'm usually so hyped up about doing it that I don't think about that till it's over but this is the first time in a long time, like that show, where I came in knowing I am sitting down to do the last one and I wanna do a good job and I've got a lot of pressure on me. So I let that go and know what remains is this- it's this feeling L: Hmn, yeah R: and it's a little tiny- it's a little soft, bittersweet thing. It's not bad, it's not problematic, but then you have that and then you move on and you get into it, but you take a moment for that and you say "Ah, thanks" then you put the hat on and you go to work and that's what I did. And it worked that night and I think it just worked here. First question please. L: All right, first question is "If you were to choose one performance skill to suddenly gain expertise in overnight, what would it be and why?" R: Wow. So this is the magical superpower question L: yeah this is the- the instant *snap* skill R: Instant skill. Oh 'cause it would be so easy to pick up, because then you'd have it L: Yeah R: Okay, this is where I can either be clever or honest and I'm gonna go with honest. L: Okay honest R: No thanks, and here's why, because that's not a blow off at all. Thinking about this, I'm like the result of a lot of silly mistakes and actions and one of the things I have found about myself is that I really like steep learning curves. If something's too easy, I get bored. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: If I had something that came to me and just landed in my hand? I'd play with it for a while and I'd put it down and walk away, and conversely there are things that I have worked on for literal years and years like a life practice and those things have become integrated into who I am and because of that they always become, even if they're silly things like how to spin your hat L: *Affirmative Noise* R: They become philosophical. They become deeper than just the little thing and I make discoveries along the way. Even when you're bad at something, if you're paying attention you're going to make a discovery. Which means once you're good at it you can use that discovery to create comedy or create storytelling and I feel like that's so important. I did a- a juggling act where, it was one of the last juggling acts I worked on with my original juggling partner and we did it in a- in a big variety show, but it was a piece of storytelling it was narrative and I walked in and in the course of the act he taught me how to juggle and it happened very quickly to music, but the idea was that journey of practice and it became such an anthem to it. That idea, and we talked, when we sat down to write that thing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We talked about "Oh yeah, I- I want to bring this mistake, because it's a mistake we always make and I want to do this and I want to have this win, because it was so important to me." We put all those things in the act L: *Affirmative Noise* R: If we had just woken up as jugglers one day, we never would have had those things to bring to that story. There's- a there's a great quote that is "you- The more personal you become with your mistakes, the more universal you become" and it's sort of counter to common sense, but if I just am there, present and trying to be the every man but not really being myself, I become inauthentic. I become plastic and it's really hard to relate to me but if I'm really, honestly here and, you know, dare I say it, warts and all, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Well then, you get me. You don't have to like me but you- you understand me. You connect to that. L: Okay, yeah. Yeah. R: and therefore you can have that connection and I fear, I genuinely fear that if something is a little too easy- I don't think I've ever put this exactly in this way but if it's a little too easy it's gonna take the humanity off it for me and because of that, I had just now- a very- and I'm glad I paused, because I would have gone for clever, I'm glad I paused at the beginning but I- I would I had a really visceral reaction to the idea of a being too easy. I'm like "No, I don't want that. I want it- I want it to be hard. I want to- I want to really work for it. I want to earn it and then I want to share it with an audience, and whatever I learned along the way, the little nuances that made me me. I want to be able to give that. L: Okay. R: So that- I'm going to go there. I'm gonna go there. L: Nice R: Nice. I hope you don't have a big philosophic rant. I hope you've got something because that was- I feel like- I feel like I- maybe I seem like I was faking that, but that was genuine. "If you were to choose one performance skill to suddenly gain expertise in overnight. What would it be and why?" and I say this as a person who knows how quickly you pick up skills. L: oh R: You are- you are a fast learner of physical things. You have L: by comparison to a lot of people, yes. R: You have a gift L: I'm lucky- lucky enough to be fairly in tune with my body and have a body that's responsive to- to training it. Um, let me think. R: Dramatic pause L: because the- What you've just said really resonates with me, quite a bit because I think- I think you're right in that the- the challenges that you have really end up informing who you are, how you do things and I mean just- just yesterday in the gym we tried something new, to actually integrate a- a intentional fall into a trick and R: It was hard l: It was difficult and these things become easier if you were present and aware when you are making mistakes at the beginning and I think, additionally, as somebody who wants to start teaching more of these physical skills, remembering what it's like at the very beginning and remembering what mistakes you make at the beginning and remembering what mistakes you make half way through and which challenges show up is very, very important because sometimes it's very easy to lose sight of it. R: You're so- you're so right on that one. L: and when you lose sight of it and you try to teach someone, and you don't remember where the beginning was at it's very difficult to connect with them in a way that they can actually understand and process well. So, from that point of view, I think you're really spot on. However, R: I was hoping you'd have something. L: However R: because we're not just philosophers in here L: I do have a performance skill that I would gladly accept an overnight *snap*, instant, I know how to do it. R: Oh, do share L: and I'm capable of doing it R: Do share L: Backflips. R: Oh, why backflips? L: because there are many, many places where you can get things wrong to minimal consequence in many, many physical skills. I have zero interest in falling on my head, neck, shoulders, or upper back over the duration of trying to learn how to do a backflip. There are ways to mitigate that. R: Sure L: Those tend to involve having very specific gear. That's using foam pits. That's using, trampolines in many cases that's using springboards, which I, at present, don't have access to. I don't know whether or not I'll ever learn how to do a backflip. It's kind of fun that any time a kid asks me to do one I end up doing something else. R: I was wondering why you wanted to know- wanted the backflip L: but backflips are very, very cool and I would love to be able to do them. I'd- R: Do kids ask you for them? L: All the time. R: They just walk up and say "Do a backflip" L: Yes R: Are you doing something athletic at the time? L: Typically it is part of an escalation. R: Okay L: Jane has historically found herself in competitions of physical skill against children aged between five and about eight or nine R: and they tell you to do a backflip? L: and they- it starts with somebody who's capable of doing a back bend or capable of doing a cartwheel and then Jane does a cartwheel and then it's immediately "Do a backflip!" Nobody involved can do a backflip. The kids can't do a backflip. I can't do a backflip but the kids demand a backflip. I do not know why. I have no idea why they think that's a thing that I can do but they consistently ask me to. R: You just have one of those faces that looks like you can do backflip. L: Apparently, yes. R: Wow L: Apparently striped overalls are code for "can do a backflip" R: Let this be a note if you have a- bad back or a- or a weak arm or something that maybe skip the L: that possibly striped overalls might be a thing to skip. I'm not sure. I have not done the follow up of "Why did you think I could do one?" but historically that's actually lead to an intentional fall out of a cartwheel done as the attempt to do the closest thing to a backflip that that clown is capable of doing. Which is it's own good fun but I do really love the idea of appearing to fall over backward and then doing a backflip as part of that and coming out being very disoriented but having actually done that very impressive piece of skill. I don't know whether or not it's something I will ever actually put the time and energy into because it is so dangerous. R: It's interesting that the thing you want- and I think this speaks to the whole discussion- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the thing you want is not a thing that you're likely to go chasing. That's interesting to me. L: Yeah, the thing that I would be happy to say "Yeah, sure I'll pick that up if it- if it doesn't cost me anything" R: Yeah, it just L: Yeah R: but it's not something you're on the journey toward specifically. L: No, because there are many more skills that I'm focused on that have less of a high risk of injury during the learning of it. R: Well, okay. Well, in- in- in closing I- I suppose if at first you don't succeed backflips are probably not for you. L: Yup R: Good to know and good safety tip L: Actually that's not true. If the first you don't succeed, do not try backflips without oversight and appropriate landing locations. R: You're probably right. Truthfully, if first you don't succeed then probably skydiving's not for you. L: That seems pretty much R: Yeah L: spot on. R: That seems L: Yeah R: that seems good. Well, ok, I think we- I think we have put the- put the question in the bucket successfully. As they say. L: Yeah I think so. R: I don't think anybody actually says that. L: "Put the question in the bucket"? Well, maybe they should. R: Maybe they should. Okay here's- here's another one for you, since you're on a roll. L: All right. What have we got? R: "Who are your most favorite and least favorite fictional clowns and why?" L: "Most favorite R: and least favorite L: and least favorite fictional clowns?" R: yeah. *silence* R: You look perplexed L: I am having a struggle. R: Why are you having a struggle? L: because I'm not sure what a fictio- What defines a fictional clown. R: Oh. Oh. L: because, what media does a clown have to come over for them to now be fiction? R: Quick question, do you think they can see the light bulb that just went over my head? With the- L: I think it was in the "oh" you just said, yes. R: That's a- Oh, I didn't even think about that. L: because R: I never would have thought of that L: because I mean, I very quickly want to respond with, you know, my favorite clown being probably- probably the- the grandmother clown from "the Big Comfy Couch". Not actually Lunette. Fictional clown. R: Oh. Oh okay. I got worried about my self esteem for a minute. Continue. L: He made such a sad, tragic face. R: I thought it was gonna be and then I realized- L: No, fictional R: Oh, fictional. Of course, of course. Go on, please go on. L: So in fictional clowns, as my- my initial responses is- is to name off one of the clowns from- from "The Big Comfy Couch" R: but those were played by performers weren't they? L: But those were played by performers to television audiences. It- R: They were clowns L: That's a clown. So, that's not a fictional clown. That's a clown. R: So is this in books? Is this L: So does that have to be in books? Does it have to be R: animated? L: an- I don't know. R: Well I don't either. L: I don't know where that R: You're gonna have to make a call L: I don't know where that line- where the line between a clown is and where it stops. I suppose it may be that if it's animated or it's written. That's arguably now fiction. In which case I have a really hard time coming up with any ones that I like. Just, I haven't- R: interesting, yeah. L: I- I haven't experienced that. I think R: nothing L: it's almost impossible, I think it's probably almost impossible to do clown and to describe clown in a book in a way that's compelling and in a way that's remotely real because if we could be said in words clowns wouldn't have to say it in body and movement and action. R: They'd just be novelists L: Yes. So, personally I've never seen that. I've never seen it done. Now, maybe someone has done it. If someone's done this and people know about it, please tell me. I would love to read that. R: I'd love to read a good clown book. I can't think of one L: but I can't think of one R: that isn't a history that isn't a- you know, an actual. L: Yeah, yeah, No. Some- some- there are some amazing accounts of real clowns but that- that's not, once again, that's not a fictional clown. That's R: Exactly L: a historical account. R: Well it's, you- you can't find one you like L: And- R: or dislike L: and with- with animated- I don't feel like I've seen any animated clowns that weren't either the butt of a 'nobody likes clowns' joke or a scary horror-type perversion of clown. I think that's the only two things that I've seen. I've seen- I've definitely seen animated clans where it was a party clown and nobody liked them and I've seen animated clowns that were creepy clowns R: Yeah L: and I don't like any of that. I just- it's- nope. None of that is something that I find compelling R: but you haven't named anything. You haven't- you haven't gotten on a hill here, on anything. Pick something. Pick something you like, pick something you dislike. Give us something. L: I don't have anything that I- I can't give you one that I like. I don't have a favorite. R: You don't have a favorite fictional at all. L: *Negating Noise* No, because R: You said 'the Big Comfy Couch' you're not even going to go there and say that's fictional 'cause you think the L: because I think that's real R: 'cause it's like saying 'the Muppets' of course, those are real Muppets. L: Exactly R: Yeah L: So R: I agree L: but, least favorite fictional clowns? I think that's pretty easy that- that's gonna have to be "It", who's not even a clown it's just simply a- it- it takes the form of a clown in order to scare a particular child but that's- that's an obvious R: It's an obvious, but it's a fair one L: Obvious one to dislike. So I'd- I'd- I'd- not- not a thing I like. Actively a thing I dislike. R: Okay L: So I'll give that as my least favorite fictional accounting of a quote unquote "clown" 'cause I think it's hard to even say that that's what that is. R: Well it's a clown,it's a- it's a perversion of a clown in order to scare someone L: Yes R: by scaring someone with something innocent. L: Yes, so that's- we've- we've covered that before R: sure. See our previous work L: Aaww. Alright R: Okay, you- you- So you've dodged out of it. L: I've dodged out of it, but only because I- I don't- R: it's fair L: Fictional R: it's fair L: is a very difficult thing to- to achieve R: You've broken my brain with the concept of "What is a fictional clown?" You've broken my brain completely. I have no idea because I thought I had answers, now I don't and I don't know L: Well, take a deep breath R: *inhales* *blows a raspberry" L: and I'll ask you the question and just- just go with your immediate response. R: My immediate response L: "Who are your most favorite and least favorite fictional clowns and why?" R: Okay, least favorite, being easy L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, it's- it's a trope but I'm gonna go with Krusty the Clown from "the Simpsons" he's just gross and he's just all the things we don't like and he's the pastiche of like, bad children's entertainers which I have my own- we've talked about, we have our own buttons with. I, you know, I- I think I'm going to go there? It's like, my instinct is to just go "That's not even a clown. That's just "Ugh, I don't like it". I think it's funny because as a rule, I really like, in the European tradition you don't put on a clown costume and go do clown. You heighten what you are and go be a big version of yourself L: yes R: or some character that comes out of that L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and- and so even the tropes of the American clown immediately, they put me and I- I'm in this work, they put me a little bit on guard. L: Yes R: So, yeah, there's that. As far as- you've completely broken me with the- with the "What qualifies as a fictional" because now I'm thinking, you know, you- any time you see- if there's a performer involved, if there's a good voice actor involved, are they doing clown work? If there's a- a sound booth and the sound booth is laughing, if they're working from that. I mean, you know, is- is any character an actor played who's really connected- oh it's done. And I can't think of a book that's ever- either that's ever present- presented the clown in a positive light. L: Yeah R: unless, you know, and here's the problem, I saw this. I liked it, but I'm not sure I'm gonna get the cartoon right and I'm gonna probably get this wrong and I'm probably going to put the correction in the show notes L: Okay R: I think it was "Rocko's Modern Life" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: used clown and being in, ironically, 'the clown closet' as a way to talk about sexuality and orientation L: Yes, that was "Rocko's Modern Life" R: Thank you. I mean and- and I will- I will find something on this to put in the show notes because it was fascinating and I saw this not too long ago and I didn't particularly like the portrayal of clowns in it but I love that they used a thing that people have strong emotional responses about to talk about a thing that people have strong emotional responses about. I thought that "Okay, here's a really clever use of- of- of this sort of idea. Of using clowns fictionally to tell stories" and I thought it some of- I thought it was effective storytelling. So I will- I will share some resource, I will find, to source that and will verify it but that- that'd be my positive fictional, the closest I could get L: Okay R: And that's in- and that's in broad brush strokes because it was just people, literally people dressing up for the enjoyment of being silly. L: Yes R: Which, in many ways, is clown but they were all fictional characters. So it was- it was very meta L: Okay yeah, that- that's better than I could do. R: Okay. So that's- I did something. I did something. Okay, I can calm down. I want to get it right. You see me, I'm on the edge here? L: Yeah R: The pressure's on. L: It's a good question R: it's a great L: trying to get it right is is a big thing. R: Let me be clear, I don't think it's a bad question, in fact I think it's a terrific question because it put us on the spot a little bit. L: Oh yeah. R: I think part of the reason we wanted to do this is we- we wanted to dig at some ideas L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and we're not the most research- I mean, I'm- I'm fairly well trained and I'm- I'm fairly well- I do a bit of research, I'm not super researched, I'm not super academic certainly. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So I- I like the idea of- of exploring and finding, you know, both my biases and my opinions and getting those in- into the conversation I think that's the- that's the reason why I like a question that puts me on the spot L: Yeah R: Got another one that'll put me on the spot? I'd be all about- L: Yeah, please send them. R: Yeah L: please R: Yeah, I mean you- you've got cards in your hand. L: Oh, yes. I do actually have another card. Okay, here we go. R: Does- is it gonna put me on the spot? L: It might. R: Okay, let's see L: "How do we go about dispensing with the concept of dignity? Or at least learn how to set it aside lightly for periods of time, given that life is inherently embarrassing?" R: Do you feel the warm blanket of discomfort that came in here to snuggle with us? L: Yes, yes I do. R: Wow. Okay. Dignity, discomfort, embarrassing life. I've got this. So, here's- here's the thing, one of the quotes I've heard early in my journey in studying clown that has stayed with me and as I've researched it, I keep finding a clown older than the clown I heard it from that said it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So, every time I think I know who this is attributed to, I find out I'm wrong and it goes back further. So it's not one that I'm going to bother. I- I just file it under generically this is clown wisdom, but the- the phrase is "The clown is both an orangutan and a poet" L: Okay R: and so the idea is that the clown is both of these things. The orangutan is the very primate, primordial, human, earth, in the mud, gross and the head's in the clouds reading poetry and talking to angels, you know, it's- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: it's- it's metaphor and mud. It's- it's that relationship. That is- the clown is both of these things simultaneously and part of what I love about this work is that you are always a little outside of normal and that's both forgiven, encouraged, and mocked. When you're looking at the character. L: Okay, yeah. R: And- and take that were you will when you start talking about the real world but I'm- I'm gonna keep it where- where I'm at right now, for a moment. With that, I'm always looking at the fact that part of why we- we wanna watch the clown fall down. We want to watch the clown get back up. We want the clown to be a loser, so we can watch them occasionally win. So when we empathize with a loser and feel like they're one of us and they win it gives us a little bit a hope that we can win L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So, I think that sort of hero's journey cycle is im- important to what the clown does, is they're constantly giving us hope because they are a screw up. L: Yes R: They have screwed up, they are currently screwing up and they will screw up for generations to come but in doing so, that means the rest of us who are screwups, who are currently screwing up and feel like they may screw up in the future feel a little relieved that someone survived. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The quote I love is that the- the- what is it "The tragic hero knows they are going to die. They wa- they walk into the story knowing they will die because they are the tragic hero and the clown knows they're gonna be bad at their jobs so they just go and have a good time with it. They know they're gonna be bad so they don't have to get angst ridden about it. They can enjoy the folly of failure, the joy of failure." L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So that's what I think of and I think in that respect, you don't necessarily dispense with it not because we- we should either dispense with it or hold it high, because the act of not just having it destroyed but having it destroyed and then we watch the clown get up and dust themselves off and keep going becomes noble. L: Okay R: That's the part that I think is- is super important in the clown, and- so how do we dispense with dignity? We don't, but not because it's bullet proof but because it'll survive the impact. That's- that's how I- I think that's how I come to it. I come to it and I go "It's going to get destroyed because the world is horrible" and at times- and this is- it's again, I'm always thinking try to be nice when we're talking but life is- life is brutal L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and at times cruel and finding that hope, that optimism is so hard that I think one of the purposes of creativity is to- is to give us a little comfort in that regard. It's to give us a little- a little model- a little abstracted model of "Oh, well it can happen on a small scale, so maybe we can scale that up to life. We can be knocked down and continue. We can re-find ourselves" because if the clown just sat there, fell down- the clown fell on their butt in the mud, got the pie in the face L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and the just stayed there we would be- we would be damaged. I think we as an audience would be damaged by that. If you saw Buster Keaton just give up instead of moving to the next disaster, because, you know, Keaton curve says Buster goes into a situation, gets out of it by the skin of his teeth and ends up in a worse situation. L: Yes R: that's the curve and yet the- the character knows this somehow and is willing to keep going because at least they're not in the previous fire L: *Considering Noise* R: That, I think has it's own absurd little nobility. I think that has it's own little joy and so to say "How do we dispense with it?" I don't know that we do. It's not going to protect you from- from everything, it may not protect you from anything but L: Dignity? R: Yeah, you know, this whole "I hold myself up high" it doesn't do anything but for some reason when the monkey falls down, the orangutan in the orangutan- poet model, as it were, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: falls down. It's some poetic idea of "Oh, maybe tomorrow will be better" and they stand up again and there's an optimism to that and there's a beauty to that and what I keep coming back to and it's- it's a trope image is, while I'm sitting here talking, I think of the Tramp, Chaplain. At the end of so many of the stories, you think of "The Circus" you think of "Modern Times" at the end of the story Chaplain's left alone woebegone, he's let go of what he wanted so- who he wanted- in the case of "The Circus" could be happier L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and he stands up and he sighs to himself and he dusts himself off and he walks off into the sunset and somewhere from "I've lost everything" to "walk into the sunset" like a goldfish, he forgets he's sad and by the time he arrives somewhere new, he's ready for the next adventure and I think that's the clown's dignity. That, the ability to go "Okay, let's see where we end up next." L: Okay R: and so that is how I say approach it. You're not going to somehow, either give it up entirely, I mean I suppose you could. I suppose we could dispense with whatever that lofty feeling is and just be in the mud but I don't think it serves us because humans can be terrible, oh yeah, they also can be amazing and that's why we keep trying L: yeah R: and that's what I'm talking about. So, yeah. I think I'll leave it there. L: Okay R: So what about you on this complicated and somewhat heavy topic of dignity? Let me, I'll read it to you again "How do we go about dispensing with the concept of dignity or at least learn how to set it aside lightly for periods of time given that life is inherently embarrassing?" L: Um, I don't know. R: that's fair L: because I certainly have not found a way to do that. R: Not even in the work? L: No! No, no, no, no, no. In the work- in the work, me clinging to dignity is a huge part of what makes my character funny. R: Oh, yeah, that's true L: Oh it's- I- I've had multiple- multiple instances where the thing that- and this is once again particularly with higher status characters, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Which I don't always play, but when I do, part of what is so entertaining about a higher status character is that most of what you end up playing with, with a higher status character is everything falling out from underneath them R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I remember one particular scene in which I was literally being pushed out of a chair, I don't remember how- or I was falling out of a chair, I don't remember how any more, I've lost the details on it but the thing that my clown clung to was the idea that "This was fine." Everything was so going according to plan. Everything was still going to be fine and- and that they hadn't lost even so much as a shred of their dignity. They'd lost all capacity to actually control the situation but their inherent sense of their status and- and their dignity was like the last thing they were clinging on to. R: How do you get out of that? How'd you get out of that? L: I don't think they did. I think that they totally ended up falling on the floor and that was what was enjoyable about it R: but then what? That's what I'm saying. L: They definitely- I mean, the same thing, they picked themselves up. R: So they did L: moved on to the next thing R: they did arrive to a moment where they got up L: They did- they did it the exact same way as- as you did R: Interesting L: as- as- as you described, but I don't think- I don't think that that comes with dispensing with the idea of dignity and I don't think that comes with the idea of separating that and the fact that life is embarrassing. I mean, life is incredibly embarrassing. Constantly you will do something that socially you will be shamed for and therefor- or you feel you may be shamed for and that is what embarrassment is. R: We could, we could talk for an hour about shame L: Yes, but I don't think that one dispenses with it. I don't think you can- I don't think you can actually separate it. I think- I think you learn how to build yourself up enough that it can take the beating. I think that that's very much the same thing that you- that you just said, is that you learn how to believe in your self-worth enough to be able to survive the moments where you mess up and the moments where somebody calls you out and the moments where you have struggles and I think part of that, and I'm only just now having this moment, I'm having this moment of thought just now. I think something that may help, and I think something that's lacking in a lot of how we see people interact is that it is with dignity that one can admit to being wrong. R: Oooh, very nice. L: It is with dignity that one can apologize for unintentional harm done. R: Assuming the intent was pure L: and that is it is more dignified, in how I see it, it is more dignified to stand there, own that you said what you said and it did the harm that it did and say "I hear you. I understand why that was wrong and I am going to do better in the future" It is more dignified to stand there and do that then it is to defend the position that you had when what you did was wrong. It's so, you know, the- the- the statement of w- wh- if you're intent was pure. If you're intent was not to hurt anybody, it is more dignified to hold that true to yourself and realize that that will come across more effectively by owning the damage you did and the things that you said, then it will by declaring what your intent was, by declaring that you weren't intending to hurt anybody. Saying "I see how that didn't do what I wanted it to" is a better way to establish what you wanted then to try to deflect when people tell you that you've done something wrong. R: You- you know what I hear that so interesting, you talk about words like "deflect" and you talk about words where you're- you're here defending and deflecting L: *Affirmative Noise* R: One of the lessons I got from working with De Castro L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and it was something I had to legitimately work on, especially after doing a lot of more kind of vaudeville performing where your- you know, it it's almost combative with an audience was, she said that you need to be "bomb proof" not "bullet proof" and what she meant, because that seems a little odd, is the you get knocked around, you get affected by something, but you're not destroyed by it. L: As opposed to? R: just knocking it away like it doesn't- like you're impervious to harm. Your so powerful that things just bounce off you without effect. That, she was describing when she said "bulletproof", like superman, she sad "The bullet comes in and bounces off, it doesn't even affect you. We would rather see you get knocked across the room and then survive it and come back" L: Yes R: and I think what you're talking about is a very high level version of that where being able to say to someone "Okay, I got it wrong" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: "I need a do-over. I need to fix this." Is incredibly dignified but it also shows that you have been affected by someone else's plight. L: Yes R: So, what you're- what you're showing is- is empathy L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and compassion and I think it's incredibly- it's incredibly interesting to see that play out and without having that- without having that note, seeing in your language that same idea of being affected by something versus it just bouncing off you without effect. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I think it's- I think you've- you've landed it L: and I think- I think you've- you've pointed out the exact thing that I was going for is that many people think that being dignified is being bulletproof. R: Oh, it's like being cool. "You're cool" implies you're cooled off, you're not passionate, you're distant L: and I think that the reality is, being dignified is being aware and accepting of embarrassment that is momentary. R: I'm giving you the knucks, because you're- giving you the knuckle pump because you did so good. That is so good, and I would say you are really cool, but I can't because I just pointed out L: *laughs* R: that it's- that it's you- that would be unaffected, and this your- I'm- I'm very- I'm impassioned by what you said, so thank you. L: Thank you. R: Yeah, and I think one of the things I have enjoyed most about all of this since the beginning is that people have sent me questions that my answer doesn't agree with the question, which implies I don't agree with the person, but that's not the point at all. I'm so grateful when I get a question like "Oh, let's- yeah! We get to talk that" L: "Let's dig into this" R: let's dig into that because yeah, technically we absolutely disagreed with this question but it's so good. Thank you for sending this so we could talk about it. L: Yes R: That's- that's aces and I hope something we said, 'cause this seems like a question that comes with some thought, this seems like very thoughtful, I hope something we offered is of use. L: Very much so R: Okay, you ready? L: Yes R: You're ready, everybody ready? Take a breath *both inhale* *raspberries* R: Some lighter fare for you. Are you ready? L: Let's go for it. R: "What is the best makeup remover for theater stuff?" L: Oooh R: and- and I'd like to point out, it says, again "What is the best makeup remover for theater stuff?" interpret as thou wilt L: That's a very, very good question. This, much like any other question about make up is so dependent on your skin, what things you are sensitive to or not sensitive to, what make up you're using, etc. but I can tell you that when I was first learning how to use theater make up and that was what it was- what it was presented to me as. I wasn't told what it was. I'm pretty sure that at the time it was greasepaint but I don't actually know that because I was in R: Wow L: theater class as a kid. R: okay L: I was in a theater workshop on- during the summer, so it was just simply quote unquote "theater make-up" R: "theater make-up" L: cold cream was the go-to. I haven't had as much success with that later on. It's very messy stuff. R: It makes your skin break out of your- if your- if your skin's already oily L: but for some people R: it's the stuff L: it's aces. For me, I use a- I use not particularly branded "makeup removal wipes" which I believe are an astringent mix with a wipe and just- just wipe that across my face takes off my set grease paint. I do tend to have to follow that up with a more gentle, specifically formulated for eye-make up removal remover on a cotton ball that I rub over my eyes to get my, I use greasepaint for my eyeliner as well, but for my eyeliner and for any mascara because mascara is one of the few things that are quote unquote "normal people make up" that I still use to highlight both my eyelashes and my eyebrows. R: Oh, yeah L: and so a formulation that's actually specifically for eye make up is a thing that I use because otherwise it stings my eyes and I'm stuck with watery upset eyes for the next couple of hours and that is never pleasant R: Not fun L: So those are- those are what I use. It's so dependent on so many other factors that I can't give- I can't give really over generalized answers because it's just- R: Well the type of makeup L: you have to keep trust- you have to keep testing things depending on what make up you're using R: the make you're using, your skin, the- the tools, the type of application. I know like, some- some airbrush make up comes off very easily L: and some does not. So in your opinion R: *Affirmative Noise* L: "What is the best makeup remover for theater stuff?" R: Oh, I get to spin this around a little L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because- because once again, I'm- I'm the clown that wears a nose and baggy pants. I don't wear a lot of makeup. I have for a couple of shows. I wore grease paint for "Almost Five" L: Yes R: and there's- there's a couple other shows where I wore grease paint and it was- it was to match the look of the show L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but not because I do that and in fact every teacher I've had was like "Not on you" but whenever I did it was greasepaint and I used- I used makeup wipes and than soap and water. Wash your face. Take care of your skin. L: yes R: you know, wash your face. So that was always a thing, but what I can speak to is clothing because I have been an acro base to many a made up performer L: Oh goodness R: and I have spent years with face prints on my back. On every costume I have ever owned and it's started- it didn't start with you, it started when we have living dolls and one of the living doll characters had to do a physical performance where they- they were carried- I carried them in. I put them on stage and they they sort of- their performance was them coming to life. L: Yes R: So all I did was deliver them to the stage L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and like a prop like, you know, a mic stand in one hand and- and done a doll over my shoulder and when I got off stage there was a big silver face print on my back and the answer to that question is you find the best dry cleaner in town, you put a little mark on it and you say "Please fix this" because nothing will take that stuff out of cloth. It's- the dry cleaners work weird chemical magic and I feel bad about it and I'm glad we do less of that and that we've gotten better at not letting people put face prints, like you've learned to put your arm down and not let that happen L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but yeah, ever- I think every costume in this closet has at- if it's on upper body has at one point had some make up on it and it- the leg on a couple pair of pants have had make up on them. L: Oh, I believe that R: and honestly greasepaint does remain easiest to remove from things and sometimes that'll come out with soap and water L: *Affirmative Noise* I have had to remove grease paint from the inside lining of my hats. R: Oh yeah L: on multiple occasions R: There's probably a couple hats up there that still have marks L: *Affirmative Noise* R: on from- from some made up characters I did. So yeah but I've been lucky because I didn't wear a lot of make up but yeah theater stuff, everything the- I will say this, I cannot think of a time when I've ever gotten make up on shoe because I'm very good at when I aim a kick L: *Laughs* R: but I feel like it's- I feel like it's coming now that I've said it. L: Now that you've put it out there yeah, probably R: Now that I've put it out there. It's funny because while there are standards, this is one of those places where like, the companies have their formulations but there isn't necessarily a standard or any oversight on this stuff and so you're combining one part carefully chosen "I had this thing made" and one part "I got that from a thrift store" and one part "I don't know what that's made out of in their make up and everybody's face is different" and so, yeah, you end of trying things. I did have luck with the- the stain remover sponges, I did have that on costumes once. L: Oh, ok I gotcha. R: You've gotta be careful, test it, because it can pull the- it can pull the color out of 'em too L: yeah R: So yeah, this just became costume care and it- I'm off topic and I apologize L: You know what? People asked about makeup remover for theater stuff R: Stuff L: it counts. R: and don't let your clowns get too close to the curtain, based on that, unless they have sealed their makeup. L: Oh my gosh. R: I have actually seen on the back of- on the back of a pipe and drape? I've seen face prints and- and I get- I get real angry about it, 'cause I'm like, " Eh, just seal your makeup" L: So there you are R: There you are. That is- that is the answer I have, my limited knowledge of make up at this point L: Okay. In that case R: In in that case L: We have reached the final question R: Wow L: for the final episode R: Oh, L: of season two R: Oh, wow L: So here is the last one. Are you ready? R: No. No, I'm not. L: Well, what can we do to help you be ready R: I don't know. I just it- it feels like- we- I feel like we flew through it. L: It did. It did just- just- just gently move quite quickly. R: Perhaps, perhaps some personal remarks before we continue. Do you have any personal remarks? L: Your hair looks fabulous today. R: Thank you. Thank you. You're- you're fishing for compliments. I like your glasses L: Thank you R: Dinner was lovely. L: Yes it was R: It was lovely, it was lovely. L: I have greatly enjoyed spending time here in this closet with you and with all of you R: Well, hey, just slow your roll. We're not done yet. L: I know I'm just making a personal remark R: Oh, now I'm ready. Did you see what happened? L: Yes R: You see, I got ready. L: There we are R: That was nice L: Okay R: Okay L: Well, if you are ready. R: I am, I dare say, I wasn't born ready but I got here as soon as I could L: "What would you wish for clowning in general and Circus Freaks in particular?" R: Oh you stacked the deck nice. That's a good way- That's a good one L: I thought so R: I think that was good. Well done. All right. Well, I think we've talked about like, the future of clown quite a bit, you know it's- it- we've- we've talked- we've talked a lot about that. L: Yeah, we did. We got- we had another very similar question R: Yeah L: about clowning in general R: but this is more about us L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but so, I'll- I'll- I'll say- I'll say, on the- on the subject of clown, I'll sort of hand wave and say "see the previous" the short version is more diversity please. L: Yes. R: more diversity and- and don't be afraid to shake off the- the- the silly idea that clowns are just silly and- and look at the history of clown and realize it's fascinating and- and get more in the world and- and do something that helps. So yeah, there's that. As for us personally, oh. I got- I got the two hats fell into my hand, the performer hat, the teacher hat, it always does. L: Yes R: because I left the business hat downstairs. I'm smart that way. For the performer hat, obviously my ego would love, when the time is right, to get back in the world and be performing L: Yes R: It is not- it is not that time for us right now. I think- I think when we do that, in addition to getting back to what we love, one of the things that we've been exploring deeply is theatrical mask and trance mask. L: Yes R: and I would like to see about, whether it is individual characters or particular acts or entire shows, I would like to get to where we're using those and we've got a lot of work to do because there's workshopping and things to happen well before then but I- I want to see what- how that integrates with the clown work we're already doing. I know I- obviously I'm not abandoning what I love L: Yes R: but I'm expanding it and I want to see how do those things- how do those things come together. So from the performing side, it's that. We have also trained a tremendous amount of physical skills in the last couple of years and I look forward to the bar in what we do going up so significantly L: Yes R: from that point of view we- because we've- we've always done a bit of it but now it's at a level where I won't say we're good at it, but we're kind of good at it, kinda L: Starting to R: Yeah, so- so- the- from the performing things I- those are the things I hope for us, for us clowns, to get in the world. To do more. To do some more of the things we've been working towards but then there's this- this teacher hat and obviously I miss- I miss teaching more than I thought I would because we had some online teaching we were doing which is absolutely not the same. The podcast honestly fed- fed that. This- this has actually fed that because getting to talk about the work was one of the joys the other thing was getting to play the games and doing the development and can I go far future? Can go like, dream? L: Sure yeah, R: this has, this is L: just says "What do you wish for R: Wish L: clowning in general and R: yeah, why don't I? L: circus freaks in particular?" R: Okay, because I'm not going to worry about fame and fortune and gr- I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about getting to continue to do it, but from the teacher hat, I have always- you know, I've always been a guest star in that some place, wonderful places, have said "Please, come here. Teach.", "Come here, work with our performers", or "We would like to have you teach a class" or- and it's like, you come in and you teach and it's really nice and sometimes those are great organizations and they're doing a lot of good and you know you're helping and that is wonderful, but you also know you've got a limited amount of time. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The only exception to that was like, the residency program, it felt quite a bit like ours because it was the same students on an ongoing basis and so we knew we would have them to continue working. L: yes R: but we only had them a couple times a week L: yes R: we didn't have a short intensive. So one side of this is, I would really love an opportunity to finally do a deep dive intensive where maybe we spent a week or two weeks just dialed in on the work from the ground up because I've- I've done all the pieces L: Yes R: I've had lots of practice. What- but I've never gotten to go from- I have gone from zero to "we have a new baby clown" but that was over a long period. I've never tried to succeed in that in a shorter amount of time. Of giving someone the tools L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and helping them find it in a- in a- in a short period of time. So that excites me, and alongside that, big wishes, what that looks like when you're not doing it as a guest star is you're doing it in your own house. I think I just said that I- I'm finally at a place in my life while I always thought that that would mean the end of performing, it doesn't I- I know that now. I think I'm ready to- to m- you know, is it time to fin- found a school? I read something that stuck with me which was that several of the clown schools that I really respect, the teachers sort of realized they were done taking classes and learning what they needed to learn and they wanted to go figure it out in their own lab, much as I'd done in guest star spaces and in my own residency stuff. But essentially they went "Oh it's time to go found a school" even though they themselves admitted they didn't know what they were doing yet, but the only way they were going to figure it out was to show up and start working and so from that point of view, I- I- I think, I would wish if I could wish is to have a space and a place and an opportunity and people to- to have a school. To make a clown school, but not- not a clown school in the "ha-ha yuck-"like get into the philosophical meat, get into these kinds of questions and these kind of discussions and build something that- that helps people, I mean, the big wish is, it's never been just for performance. I love performing. I love helping performers get good so they can go out and do, but also helping people find their voice. Helping people who may never have, and this has been a lot of people in my- my teaching experience, a lot of people don't necessarily have any intention of performing. Whether or not they end up performing is separate L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but they find that the tools help them achieved their voice and their goals. So, having spaces where you can do that, I think that would be awesome. I think that'd be amazing. I think I'm there. I think I've- I've sat here like I've been sitting in a- in a monastery long enough to come to that realization, that the dream would be "Yeah, let's- let's have a school" and then still be out there, I mean, you still gotta go out there and perform. You're not done. That's the thing because the fear that stopped me from heading in that direction earlier in my life was this very, very silly idea that we had to stop. L: *laughs* R: performing, you had to- to stop and retire and now that you're old and gray you teach the next gen- No! While you're getting old and gray you teach the next generation. That's the only way it works. I'm sorry. It took me a while to figure that out. So, those I think, are the- the wishes. I want to see if we can figure out and with every school is you have, you know, whether it's Lecoq or you have Pochinko, you have Gaullier, every school has its own pedagogy. They're teaching the same ideas but they create their own frameworks. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: their own way of teaching it. L: yes R: their method, if you will. I think maybe we can find that method, given a little bit of time. L: All right R: So yeah, that's- that's the big dream now, maybe, big wish. That just poured out of me. That's a lot. L: Yeah R: Yeah, I hope I didn't steamroller you. Do- do you have wishes for your clown? For your clown future that you wish to share with us? L: Are you going to ask? R: Oh, formally. I should. I've so- it's become- L: You've- you've- you've- you've- you've gotten so far into the weeds, you've forgotten the format of this- of this podcast. R: I did. I did. I apologize because it's such a- I will be honest on this before a pass it off. It is not a thing you see me do very often, I think about what we're working on. I think about what we've done "Oy, what have we done?" L: *laughs* R: is a think I do- I say not infrequently but I don't necessarily sit there dreaming about- we go to the next thing that's logical. Not like we're lost and we're just reacting but we go "Oh, well this seems like the next step" but we don't often sit down and vision board out the future like that L: It's true R: So it's a- it's a weird thing when it happens. Woah. I'm sorry. Okay, out of the weeds into the closet, with the cards reading to you, "What would you wish for clowning in general and Circus Freaks in particular?" L: Okay, as- as you mentioned, we've talked about clowning in general before R: I salute you L: and R: clowning general L: No, clowning in general R: Oh, my mistake. I retract my salute. Give you a hearty nod L: Thank you, and once again more representation across the board, more people playing together, more people get- being given opportunities to share their views and what they believe in through this medium because I think it so powerful but for Circus Freaks in particular, R: That's us L: Which is us, and for- for- for- for me as part of Circus Freaks and for Circus Freaks in particular- I think your concept of- of both hats coming to the table there, both the- the teaching and the performing hats- goodness I can't wait to perform again. I- in- I will wait until it's reasonable and it's safe for us to do so but I am looking forward to it so very, very much and I'm really looking forward to workshopping again because it's very difficult to workshop without without an audience or without a workshopping audience and haven't been able to put that together because we're hiding in our house. So, looking very much forward to when that is possible again and doing as much of that as possible once it is. R: Oh, yeah L: because I have a lot of new discoveries to be made. R: You get to- you to take it all apart, go back to the beginning and put it L: and put it back together again. I am so excited, and I'm starting to work on what I can of that already but R: you have been L: that is definitely in the wish list. On the teaching front, and I hope that this is in line with the idea of that school because that sounds amazing and I am one hundred per cent here for it R: Oh good. I was going to ask if you wanted to show up L: I would love to R: Take a class. L: Um R: I just got a look. L: You- you did because R: I got a look L: because I have been assistant teaching for this idiot for a significant amount of time R: I accept your accusation that I'm an idiot in the spirit in which it's intended. Professional L: Yes, but one of the things I am looking forward to is potentially being able to do more teaching on physical skills because I have been training a lot of physical skills and learning a lot of physical skills and I've been doing that for many, many years now and there's definitely a point early in that where you don't know enough to keep anybody safe teaching those skills R: yeah 'cause you're busy being a toddler making your own mistakes. L: Yes and I think I am beginning to get the place where I'm going to be able to teach those things more effectively and reasonably so I- and safely and I would like to be able to do that so, in wishes without particular timelines attached? R: Oh yeah, this- this is wishing L: that's a hundred percent a wish. I want to be able to help people get into their bodies and find out all of the very cool things the body can do. R: I've found you to be such a- because we've talked about how you have coached me in physical skills L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and you've been such an amazing teacher in that you are both capable of doing things and demonstrating things but also in that you have a sensitivity to pay attention to where me, your student, is and I think so many people would benefit from the experience of having someone who's actually listening to them while they learn to listen to their body L: Yes R: and giving that feedback and that is- that is a thing that I was incredibly grateful for- for you to give to me and I would- I would like to create a space for you to give that to others L: Oh good R: If I can. L: Oh good R: You're hired! L: Fantastic R: big handshake, alright L: So yeah, that is very much on- on my wishlist, is that Circus Freaks gets to teach more physical skills along side the clown skills, moving forward and if- if you're thinking you're ready to start looking towards heading in the direction of building- building a school and finding out how that works for us? I am on board. R: Wow L: We're heading- we're heading the same direction. R: That's- that's exciting 'cause that's not- that's not a thing we've- we've done a lot of talking about L: So R: Aaah L: So, big dreams! R: Wow L: Thank you for asking R: Thanks for that L: for dreams and wishes because that gives us the opportunity to discuss them. R: Okay, rapid fire because it'd be fun. Three tiny little Circus Freak-sy, clowney wishes. Three little ones. L: Three- three little tiny ones? R: because this was so big L: Yeah they were big okay. R: Three little ones L: Three little wishes R: yes L: for the Circus Freaks R: Yes L: let's see, R: Don't think too hard, just pop 'em out L: I'm- I'm working on it R: Okay L: I would like for us to have a delicious snack R: That's- I agree that we need a post podcast L: snack R: snack, sure, and you've been sitting, listening so you probably need one too. L: I'm wishing for a whole bunch of new questions for season three R: Yup, we need them if we're going to keep going, yeah. L: and I am wishing for both of us to bathe after having gotten significantly sweaty sitting in this- in this closet R: *Sniffs twice* L: doing a podcast R: You make a valid point, now that I've explored. One, I'm gonna do mine L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I wish I hadn't just sniffed myself because that was a mistake. L: *laughs* R: Two, I wish that I will someday, achieve the balance of learning to say something deep and then shutting my mouth instead of this moment where I say something deep and then I sniff my armpit. L: Okay R: but I'm figuring the minute I do that I am probably no longer in this job 'cause this job is pretty much being profound while sniffing your armpit L: And three R: and three, I need a third one. I will say that I hope we find, while digging through the workshops of the future and the shows on the way and all of the stuff, we find the next big story that we want to tell and we find the friends to tell it with because I think that would be a lot of fun. L: Lovely R: Thank you L: Well that's all of my questions. I don't have any more R: Wow L: there's- that's- we get back to the top of the stack R: back to the top of the stack. We've done it. It feels different because you know, the first time we did this L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We- we- we begged for questions. We had just enough to finish and that sort of defined our- we said "Oh, that feels like the right episode length" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and then this time we tried to match that plus one and we have- we have more L: we do R: and as promised L: yes R: while they are not enough for a full season we have- L: We have enough for at least a couple of episodes R: a couple of- a- we have enough to get started. So be- think about it and send to us at any time, questions you'd like for the future. Obviously we will be back, next year? L: Probably next year. R: That's- that's about the timetable L: It seems to be about when we start R: timetable, and we'll keep you updated. Follow us online, if- if something big and exciting happens we'll certainly talk about it. L: Of course we will R: Yeah, and in the meantime, I hope you enjoyed this season because I feel like we dug deeper. L: I think we did, we got very personal R: and that was- yeah L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I think- and I think that was good. I think it was- it was nice. L: Yeah, I think it was very good R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and I really appreciate that we got some real- real hard hitting questions. R: We also got, and I- and I mean this. We got- we got some great feedback. People telling us, just- just offsides "Hey, this meant something" or "I really enjoyed this" or people who we know who show up and tell us the thing they heard that stuck with them L: Oh it means so much. R: We ramble on for a while, I know. We're silly, but if you remember a thing and it either made you laugh, or made you think, or gave you a lot? I love that because I feel like then this doesn't just feel like I'm talking into my coat, or series of coats. I feel like I'm- I'm talking to you. I feel like I'm talking to- to you who are listening and it- and it means a lot to know that at some point you're going to pop us in your ears and either sit there and do your thing or go for a walk or stand there and do nothing. I don't know what you're going to do with it but that I'm not alone right now because you're here and then when you're listening to this, you're not alone because we'll be there with you. Right here on L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Yeah, okay. L: Okay R: You know what I've got behind this door? L: A theme song? R: Look at you! You already know the format! What about people who just tuned in, who don't know the format? They're having feelings. L: There's gonna be a theme song R: There's the theme song. It's good. It makes me giggle every time I hear it and every version of I've heard that someone sent me made me smile for entire day. Thirty seconds of music that'll make you smile for an entire day L: Can't ask for more than that. R: I hope you find lots of things that make you smile all day. Ready? L: Ready R: set? L: go! R: It was too fast! L: Oh R: I felt stressed out L: I didn't mean to stress you out. R: Yeah L: that wasn't my R: I know. I know. I know you're excited. We did a good job and you feel good about it. I'm doing thing I always do. I linger L: Yes R: I do tend to linger. L: You do linger. R: I apologize. You like it. L: Of course I like it R: I figured L: If I didn't like it, I wouldn't be sitting here with you in between me and the door. R: You would have switched seats and just walked out L: Let you linger by yourself R: Being one clown all by myself, yeah. That wouldn't be nearly as fun as being L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: So much better. *silence* R: No? No, no, no. It just- we'd- it- L: It was right there! R: It was right L: That was the moment. R: That was it, we missed. L: That was it, you missed. R: I missed, I missed. It's on me. It's on me. I apologize. We'll find it- don't panic L: I think- I think he's R: we always L: getting scared R: No L: We're coming back. R: You promise? L: I promise. R: I'm not scared but, you promise? L: I do promise R: Okay I promise L: We're coming back R: I promise too. I hereby solemnly swear that I will see you in season three of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: That was perfect. *door opens* *theme music plays*